by Morgaine

Go Back   Second Citizen MK II > The Islands: Off Topic & Other > Off Topic > Politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes

Old 03-26-2014, 10:50 AM   #921
Govi
Ça va chier.

Govi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Rez Date: Mar 06, 2004
Location: Left coast
Posts: 20,631
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 5k trainwreck 
Total Awards: 2
Default

Either this is very bad reporting on that Pew poll or the Pew poll itself is very badly constructed, because these things are not the same issues:

From the Pew poll (at the link, red to highlight phrases at issue):
However, Republicans and Democrats have had very different views of the two operations. Today, only about half of Republicans (52%) say it is acceptable for the NSA to obtain court orders to track phone call records of millions of Americans to investigate terrorism. In January 2006, fully 75% of Republicans said it was acceptable for the NSA to investigate suspected terrorists by listening in on phone calls and reading emails without court approval.


If the reporting is accurate -- it's from Pew's website -- then the question changed between 2006 and 2013, from spying on suspected terrorists without a court order (2006) to spying on everyone with a court order (2013).

Pew Research site: Majority Views NSA Phone Tracking as Acceptable Anti-terror Tactic
Public Says Investigate Terrorism, Even If It Intrudes on Privacy
Govi is offline   Reply With Quote
This user agrees. But then, who wouldn't, right?

Old 03-29-2014, 01:40 PM   #922
Redhead
Pure Acetylene Virgin

Redhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,826
My Mood:
Default

Here's a question: What, exactly, do you send in your emails that you absolutely need to "protect" from the NSA?

Seriously. They don't care about your cat and aren't interested in your porn, so what are you "protecting"?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe Lippmann View Post
Slightly off topic....do we think people should get prior approval for this sort of comment theft?
Redhead is offline   Reply With Quote
This user groaned at this post:
This user laughed so hard that they peed a little:

Old 03-29-2014, 02:37 PM   #923
Govi
Ça va chier.

Govi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Rez Date: Mar 06, 2004
Location: Left coast
Posts: 20,631
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 5k trainwreck 
Total Awards: 2
Default

Answers to that question are earlier in this thread.
__________________
Govi is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 03-29-2014, 04:48 PM   #924
Redhead
Pure Acetylene Virgin

Redhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,826
My Mood:
Default

I'm going to just assume that the answers were all "Well...nothing really..."
Redhead is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 03-29-2014, 05:26 PM   #925
Govi
Ça va chier.

Govi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Rez Date: Mar 06, 2004
Location: Left coast
Posts: 20,631
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 5k trainwreck 
Total Awards: 2
Default

Silly.

Personal: abuse by government personnel of your phone call information. Think of an ex with a powerful grudge who works for the NSA. Think of an NSA person who makes a mistake and somehow misinterprets your "explode all the bridges to my family" as a terrorist phrase. Think of a police officer with a grudge. There are only administrative checks on this kind of thing.

Again, personal: like SS numbers, NSA data would begin to accumulate as a dossier of your life. Potential employers or marital partners might wish to peruse your dossier. How long before a consent to allow NSA data to be perused would be part of applying for a job? Or even without your consent. Ditto credit card applications. The thing you did when xx years old that you have lived down, lived through, lived past, moved on from, held against you forever by a national data bank of everything you've ever done electronically/digitally.

Business: trade secrets passed on for appropriate sums by rogue NSA personnel. Business secrets used for NSA personnel personal profit.

Really, Red, you needed help with these?
Govi is offline   Reply With Quote
This user agrees. But then, who wouldn't, right?

Old 03-29-2014, 07:30 PM   #926
Redhead
Pure Acetylene Virgin

Redhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,826
My Mood:
Default

All of which could just as likely happen without any involvement of the NSA. Besides, if the government wants to obtain your "secret" information there isn't a damn thing you can do to stop them. The NSA wouldn't even bother trying to break any encryption you use, they would just load spyware on your computer and read it all before you encrypt it.
That or send a few guys to your house at 3am to make you tell them what they want to know. Thanks to Dubbya they could just spirit you away to some secret location never to be heard from again, so encrypting our emails about pasta recipes is irrelevant.

Hell, most people use the same damn password for every single thing they do online. We shouldn't be worried about the NSA, we need to worry about criminals.

I use very strong encryption and very strong passwords (think 50+ digit random alpha numeric, random caps, special symbols) on all my computers AND my cell phone. Not because I'm paranoid about Gov'ment spying, but because I'm justifiably concerned about criminals stealing from me.

Forget the NSA, what we need to worry about is the Solntsevskaya Bratva.
Redhead is offline   Reply With Quote
The following user says thanks:

Old 03-29-2014, 07:48 PM   #927
Govi
Ça va chier.

Govi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Rez Date: Mar 06, 2004
Location: Left coast
Posts: 20,631
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 5k trainwreck 
Total Awards: 2
Default

It's not as likely to happen if the police have to justify to a judge that they have probable cause on good evidence that you are involved in criminal acts.

As an example of how the present system works to the disadvantage of citizens who have every right to expect privacy, the police in any jurisdiction without a warrant may obtain your phone records from the telcos. Sheriff fathers have spied on their daughters and sons by abusing this, ex-spouses have spied upon their exes by abusing this. The courts have said that this meta-data is like the registry of a hotel, it's a billing record and is not private.

Letting the NSA continue without warrants, letting the CIA dip in, letting the IRS use the NSA/CIA data gathered about us is an invitation to even more abuse. And encoding your data by whatever strong means does not protect it from the NSA, it just protects it from casual criminals. Professionals with l33t skillxors and the NSA can have anything they want.

We can't require criminals to obtain warrants to invade our privacy, but we can protect ourselves from our government and should do so, by requiring warrants to invade our privacy. It is, after all, the Fourth Amendment of our Constitution, which needs to be stretched to protect our privacy in areas which didn't exist even in the imaginations of the authors of the original 1789 document.

Sitting on your hands and saying "Meh," to these invasions of our privacy is modern Pollyanna-ism.
Govi is offline   Reply With Quote
This user laughed so hard that they peed a little:

Old 03-29-2014, 11:00 PM   #928
Kick Frenzy
Rumpcious

Kick Frenzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Awesome Land
Posts: 10,174
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
No Fear 28th 
Total Awards: 2
Default

So, do y'all find it to be good news that President Obama has changed it so that phone data will be collected by phone companies instead of the NSA?

It seems like it would probably help in just about all of the situations Govi just mentioned about misuse of information.
I certainly see the worth of having the information recorded and available for digging if needed, but it's tricky as to where that info should be stored and who should be in charge of keeping it safe.
But on the face of it, it seems like a fairly decent step in the right direction.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kick Frenzy View Post
"Kleverbot kleverbot written or not, I become the temple, drinking whiskey with kleverbot." ~ Kick > Cleverbot > Bad Translator
Bang Rumpus!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trout View Post
SHUT UP AND EAT YOUR DEMON FISH OR I'LL DEVOUR YOUR SOUL FOR DESSERT!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redhead View Post
Kick's internet browser history must be quite...interesting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyVann View Post
And when Kick says "fuck no" you know it's FUCK NO!
Kick Frenzy is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 03-30-2014, 02:58 AM   #929
Govi
Ça va chier.

Govi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Rez Date: Mar 06, 2004
Location: Left coast
Posts: 20,631
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 5k trainwreck 
Total Awards: 2
Default

To me, President Obama's announcement is good news. Necessarily, since we the public demanded -- years and years ago, young 'uns! -- that the then land line only telco (there was only one then: AT&T and a little teeny tiny GTE) be required by a series of state Public Utility Commissions to tell us the number, time of day, and duration of each of our phone calls -- data they already had but hid from us -- that information is available to anyone that the telco(s) will permit. PUCs may regulate that, certainly the telcos charge for it and have a handsome business thereby. It is like a hotel registry. I'd like both to be a bit more private, i.e. that a warrant should issue from a judge OR that misuse be punishable by jail time for the police officer(s) involved.
Govi is offline   Reply With Quote
The following user says thanks:

Old 03-30-2014, 10:32 AM   #930
JohnnyVann
Rocky Mountain Hi! :wave:

JohnnyVann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,570
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 
Total Awards: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redhead View Post
Forget the NSA, what we need to worry about is the Solntsevskaya Bratva impending zombie apocalypse.
/fixed
__________________
"The only normal people are the ones you don't know very well"
JohnnyVann is offline   Reply With Quote
This user laughed so hard that they peed a little:

Old 03-30-2014, 10:34 AM   #931
JohnnyVann
Rocky Mountain Hi! :wave:

JohnnyVann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,570
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 
Total Awards: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redhead View Post
Seriously. They don't care about your cat and aren't interested in your porn, so what are you "protecting"?
Hey, I don't claim to be a great writer but surely at least some of them link my pr0n
JohnnyVann is offline   Reply With Quote
2 users laughed. The question is: Are they laughing with you, or at you?:

Old 03-30-2014, 08:57 PM   #932
Trout
Has the moves like Jagger

Trout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,691
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 
Total Awards: 1
Default

The problem for me isn't the content of my emails. The problem is that I can't tolerate the erosion of my Constitutional rights or the rights of others whether it hurts me immediately or not. If I do that, then when it does hurt me, I have no basis to complain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Trout is offline   Reply With Quote
3 users agreed. You should agree too, c'mon, you know you want to. (click it, click it now!)

Old 03-31-2014, 09:41 AM   #933
JohnnyVann
Rocky Mountain Hi! :wave:

JohnnyVann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 19,570
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 
Total Awards: 1
Default

The erosion argument is thought to argue against.


First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.
JohnnyVann is offline   Reply With Quote
This user agrees. But then, who wouldn't, right?

Old 04-03-2014, 11:41 PM   #934
Kick Frenzy
Rumpcious

Kick Frenzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Awesome Land
Posts: 10,174
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
No Fear 28th 
Total Awards: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trout View Post
The problem for me isn't the content of my emails. The problem is that I can't tolerate the erosion of my Constitutional rights or the rights of others whether it hurts me immediately or not. If I do that, then when it does hurt me, I have no basis to complain.
Honestly, all this "Constitution" rigmarole I always hear is disappointing and annoying.

The damn thing wasn't supposed to be a static document... at least according to some of the founding fathers.
And I strongly agree.
Instead of five billion amendments, the country should be reviewing and updating our Constitution to reflect advances in society.

Who needs an amendment to state that Black people are equal instead of 3/5ths of a person?
Or that slavery is abolished?

How about changing the Constitution to state clearly that ALL HUMANS are created equal?
Or that no man has a right to enslave another?

Shit... when that document was written we were just getting into the Industrial Revolution.


Not that we shouldn't have a right to privacy.
Or a process that government must adhere to when collecting or researching the data of private citizens, for that matter.
But I'm just saying... there's a lot of core wisdom in our Constitution, but there's antiquated (and frankly, dumb) shit in there as well.


(Sorry to use your quote, Trout, it just gave me a lead in.)
Kick Frenzy is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 04-04-2014, 12:02 AM   #935
Govi
Ça va chier.

Govi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Rez Date: Mar 06, 2004
Location: Left coast
Posts: 20,631
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 5k trainwreck 
Total Awards: 2
Default

James Madison was very disappointed in the Constitution until he saw that it is a very malleable document, that each beneficiary of some right or power embodied in it would argue in favor of leaving the thing intact.

Look at how few changes we have made to it. It is a very versatile and elastic object, subject to endless dispute. And we are better off that way because people are disputatious. It's better vague because it can be stretched to fit so many new circumstances.

Your lackadaisical attitude toward your privacy worries me because I fear that it is indicative of the attitude of many people. Your attitude, if it were to become enshrined in common law, case law, legislated law, or constitutional amendment, terrifies me. Apparently, you're resigned to living in a dystopian security state, your every digital word (and eventually, every spoken and thought word) subject to the unfettered perusal and administrative disapproval of digital spooks used by agencies like the NSA and Homeland Security.
Govi is offline   Reply With Quote
This user laughed so hard that they peed a little:

Old 04-04-2014, 12:18 AM   #936
Kick Frenzy
Rumpcious

Kick Frenzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Awesome Land
Posts: 10,174
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
No Fear 28th 
Total Awards: 2
Default

How am I lackadaisical about privacy when I clearly stated that we should have a right to privacy?
I specifically stated that the government should need to adhere to a process to collect and/or research or personal data.

But, please don't confuse realism with unflinching kneeling before overlords.
I simply have realized (really, since about 25 years ago) that none of our transmitted data is truly private.
If you don't want it known by someone you don't want it known by, don't transmit it.
I'm not saying it's wonderful or excusable, I'm just saying if you live with that in mind, you're closer to the mark than not.

But back to your main point... how do I appear lackadaisical about privacy?
Kick Frenzy is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 04-07-2014, 08:31 PM   #937
Jorus
Bee Bully

Jorus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,354
My Mood:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redhead View Post

I use very strong encryption and very strong passwords (think 50+ digit random alpha numeric, random caps, special symbols) on all my computers AND my cell phone. Not because I'm paranoid about Gov'ment spying, but because I'm justifiably concerned about criminals stealing from me.
Bad news, random alphanumeric+symbols strung together aren't much harder to beat than some guy with stealersfan1991! these days. And just to make things even more amusing if he throws some spaces in stealers fan 1991! his password is now harder to break than oaoitnjo4awe400$$)94u030434909jaijglnara;knh;enrio hjijolkn.
__________________
On a dark and stormy Darkmere Night, the following snippet of conversation happened....

"[22:15] Tracer Graves: problem is, i can manage to play a girl pretty well"

"[22:15] Kristian Ming: you don't need to play a girl very well to escort in sl"
Jorus is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 04-07-2014, 09:07 PM   #938
Lucifer Baphomet
Marxist Dictator

Lucifer Baphomet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1976
Posts: 14,905
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
5k trainwreck 
Total Awards: 1
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kick Frenzy View Post
Honestly, all this "Constitution" rigmarole I always hear is disappointing and annoying.

The damn thing wasn't supposed to be a static document... at least according to some of the founding fathers.
And I strongly agree.
Instead of five billion amendments, the country should be reviewing and updating our Constitution to reflect advances in society.

Who needs an amendment to state that Black people are equal instead of 3/5ths of a person?
Or that slavery is abolished?

How about changing the Constitution to state clearly that ALL HUMANS are created equal?
Or that no man has a right to enslave another?

Shit... when that document was written we were just getting into the Industrial Revolution.


Not that we shouldn't have a right to privacy.
Or a process that government must adhere to when collecting or researching the data of private citizens, for that matter.
But I'm just saying... there's a lot of core wisdom in our Constitution, but there's antiquated (and frankly, dumb) shit in there as well.


(Sorry to use your quote, Trout, it just gave me a lead in.)
There's a difference between amending your constitution to improve human rights, and reinterpreting it to limit them.
__________________
Piglet's eyes blazed with eldritch fire, his laugh echoed, huge in the deep cavern "The sacred honey is mine, mine, mine."

The feral rabbit horde edged forward.

Pooh stepped over the decapitated corpse of Eeyore. There would be time for mourning afterwards.

Flanked by Tigger and Roo, they met the ravening rabbits in pitched battle.
Lucifer Baphomet is offline   Reply With Quote

Old 04-07-2014, 09:39 PM   #939
Trout
Has the moves like Jagger

Trout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 6,691
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 
Total Awards: 1
Default

For the most part, the body of the Constitution doesn't enshrine rights. It provides for the structure of our government. However, the Amendments to the Constitution are exactly what you are suggesting. That's why we have Amendments. The very thing that you are advocating for - fluidity, changes in eeping with the times, etc. all flow from the Amendments, and being "amendments", they are every bit as much a part of the Constitution as the original Articles contained in the Constitution. In fact, the first 10 Amendments followed so closely to the Constitution that they could have practically been simultaneously executed.

We have also shown that when we err in an Amendment, that we have the ability to fix that error - see Prohibition for an example.

Additionally, the Supreme Court was given the right to interpret the Constitution, further enshrining it as a living document, open to change and re-interpretation as the times and the culture of the nation changed. That means that rights that are not specifically in the Constitution can be inferred by the Supreme Court. It's the reason that abortion is legal, even though it is not anywhere in the Constitution. Neither is a right to privacy, but the Supreme Court says it is there.

I see the current trend towards allowing the government free access to my personal information as a violation of previous doctrine laid out by the Supreme Court, and I would resist a re-interpretation that allows for further intrusion. However, completely tearing down the foundational document of our entire government is a mistake. It would invalidate 200+ years of American case law. Every reference in every Constitutional decision since the late 1700's would instantly be wrong. All statutes and all case law would refer back to a document no longer in existence. It would just be a complete cluster and it would take an enormous effort to fix it.

Leave the Constitution be. Add Amendments as needed.
Trout is offline   Reply With Quote
This user agrees. But then, who wouldn't, right?

Old 04-08-2014, 11:54 PM   #940
Kick Frenzy
Rumpcious

Kick Frenzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Awesome Land
Posts: 10,174
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
No Fear 28th 
Total Awards: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trout View Post
However, completely tearing down the foundational document of our entire government is a mistake. It would invalidate 200+ years of American case law. Every reference in every Constitutional decision since the late 1700's would instantly be wrong. All statutes and all case law would refer back to a document no longer in existence. It would just be a complete cluster and it would take an enormous effort to fix it.

Leave the Constitution be. Add Amendments as needed.
You win.

This is the only argument I've read that states clearly why any re-writing of our constitution would be a bad idea.
So, I concede that you're right and I was wrong.


(Although, I'm still right that some (or at least one) founding father(s) thought it should be updated for the times and people of new generations and progressions as a country, so it would accurately reflect the country.)
Kick Frenzy is offline   Reply With Quote
The following user says thanks:

Old 04-15-2014, 11:31 AM   #941
Richard Waveington
Blast it with piss

Richard Waveington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 5,479
My Mood:
Default

Science proves that America is no longer a democracy but an oligarchy: http://www.princeton.edu/~mgilens/Gi...s%203-7-14.pdf

.
__________________
Quote:
In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread.
-Anatole France
Sporting Dresden
Richard Waveington is offline   Reply With Quote
The following user says thanks:

Old 04-16-2014, 12:27 PM   #942
Jorus
Bee Bully

Jorus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 7,354
My Mood:
Default

It's always been though.
Jorus is offline   Reply With Quote
This user agrees. But then, who wouldn't, right?
The following user disagrees:

Old 08-06-2016, 02:42 PM   #943
Jen
Panentheistic Harridan

Jen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Kansas
Posts: 15,548
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 5k trainwreck 
Total Awards: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jen View Post
All it takes, from this moment on, is one [larger] egomaniac with blood in his eye, and off we go down the rabbit hole of Caligula Mach 10.

I'm not even exaggerating.
Longest-lived
Necro bump
in SCMKII history.

Hai guys.

__________________
"...My body isn't a temple so much as it's a littered-up roadside cross with fake flowers stuck to it." ~Oryx

"...he may know what he actually meant, but we certainly cannot. It's like some biblical quote pulled at random from Revelations and used to support Jesus wielding Colt 45s and riding a tyrannosaurus rex at the Final Battle, only much shorter and bilingual. Maybe." ~Govi
Jen is offline   Reply With Quote
This user laughed so hard that they peed a little:
2 users have offered hugs:

Old 08-06-2016, 02:51 PM   #944
Kick Frenzy
Rumpcious

Kick Frenzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Awesome Land
Posts: 10,174
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
No Fear 28th 
Total Awards: 2
Default

Hai!

And wow... that was a little too on the money!
Kick Frenzy is offline   Reply With Quote
This user agrees. But then, who wouldn't, right?

Old 08-03-2018, 04:59 PM   #945
Jen
Panentheistic Harridan

Jen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Kansas
Posts: 15,548
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
28th 5k trainwreck 
Total Awards: 2
Default

Well, I'm three days early for the anniversary of the awesome Necro-bump, but hey, I brought wine. <3
Didja miss me?
Jen is offline   Reply With Quote
One user says 'MMmmm. Pie':
2 users have offered hugs:

Old 08-04-2018, 12:12 AM   #946
Kick Frenzy
Rumpcious

Kick Frenzy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Awesome Land
Posts: 10,174
My Mood:
Awards Showcase
No Fear 28th 
Total Awards: 2
Default

Yes!
I did miss you!
(Along with just about everyone else *shouts over shoulder, listens to empty echoes*)

And yay! Wine!
I'm just about done with my first drink of the night.
It's an "ancient recipe" beer that's way better than I expected it would be.
(See more info in The Kick Box, where I chronicle all my beers.)

Sorry to hear about all the hellish health stuff over in "Nobody Cares".
(I'd reply there, but I still never posted in that thread and I can't bring myself to do it.)
However, I'm glad to hear that the holistic stuff is working so well!

I'd love to hear/see more about your painting!

My time these days is mostly spent on Twitter.
I'm just political, like, ALL. THE. TIME.
ugh
(#ThanksTrump)

I also play Elderscrolls Online and No Man's Sky.
And, still, drink about once a week.

And then there's RL stuff... like how Lil Kick just recently turned 6!
He's been taking MMA classes for almost a year now.
Also, we're going to start watching Star Wars with him soon.
As of this birthday, he's now allowed to play with (fake) guns and chew gum.
He got a Laser tag thing for his birthday, but no gum yet.

Anyway, I gotta finish this beer and start my next before I just keep yammering on, lol.

But it's great to see you around!
Kick Frenzy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
cat fight, dnc=nazi, enslaving the indolent, govi and johnny fight!, indolents in servitude, teabaggers suck, the bras come off

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:37 AM.


vBulletin skins developed by: eXtremepixels
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Second Life® and Linden Lab® are trademarks of Linden Research, Inc.
Second Citizen MK II Forums are not affiliated with or sponsored by Linden Research.
© 2009 - 2011 Second Citizen MKII [SC MKII]
| Home | Register | FAQ | Members List | Calendar | Today's Posts | Search | New Posts |