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In case you thought the American patent system wasn't broken
Old 11-17-2012, 11:47 AM   #1
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Default In case you thought the American patent system wasn't broken

Apple Now Owns the Page Turn - New York Times

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Old 11-17-2012, 12:13 PM   #2
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Apple should patent "changing the patent system" so when the government realizes how fucked up the patent system is, they won't be allowed to change it without paying Apple.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:10 PM   #3
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One Apple to Patent them All!
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:30 PM   #4
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One Apple to Patent them All!
...and in the darkness sue them.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:26 PM   #5
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...and in the darkness sue them.
I was trying to come up with a pun about apple rind but couldn't get to the core of it.

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Old 11-19-2012, 09:28 PM   #6
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Nibble around it if you can't find it right away.
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:59 PM   #7
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I was trying to come up with a pun about apple rind but couldn't get to the core of it.

Pip pip old chap!
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:43 PM   #8
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:11 AM   #9
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This sums up my sentiments nicely.

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(This is where readers are probably checking the URL of this article to make sure it’s The New York Times and not The Onion.)
I'd like to feign shock but nothing Apple does shocks my anymore.
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Old 11-20-2012, 10:04 AM   #10
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This sums up my sentiments nicely.



I'd like to feign shock but nothing Apple does shocks my anymore.
The amazing thing is Apple was late to the party on the patent mess. The came strong when they caught up but Google was way ahead of them buying up stupid patents like this.
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:02 AM   #11
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Is that the "everyone else is being an asshole, so we'll be one, too" theory as applied to Apple, Johnny?
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:42 AM   #12
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No, it's a "Everyone is being an asshole including Apple so when you attack Apple remember the other assholes"
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:52 AM   #13
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You must have annoyed your mother when by way of excuse you said, pointing at a sibling, "But s/he did it, too!"
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:35 PM   #14
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US patent chief to software patent critics: "Give it a rest already"

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...-rest-already/

tl;dr: the guy in charge of patent system says patent system is fine.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:45 PM   #15
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You must have annoyed your mother when by way of excuse you said, pointing at a sibling, "But s/he did it, too!"
Nuh huh. My brother did it first!


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Old 11-20-2012, 03:21 PM   #16
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Really, every corp does this. My own company has 3 hallways worth of posted plaque patent certificates for the California branch alone. The one that gets me is that I found a patent in one hallway for what's basically an encoder wheel. That little spokey thing that you find in ball based mice... Yeah... We own that. XD

Petty patents by far are nowhere near exclusive to Apple's M.O. (=_=)y
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:55 PM   #17
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Local communications tech giant Qualcomm has a wall of patents, each patent housed in an illuminated frame:

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Old 11-20-2012, 04:08 PM   #18
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You must have annoyed your mother when by way of excuse you said, pointing at a sibling, "But s/he did it, too!"
Usually, "But Dad taught it to me!" worked well enough to divert her atttention from me to make a very quick escape.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:36 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Aimee Weber View Post
US patent chief to software patent critics: "Give it a rest already"

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...-rest-already/

tl;dr: the guy in charge of patent system says patent system is fine.
Evidently, we are seeing a stage at which Dr. Evil has not got the "mini me" thing quite right.


BTW, Dr. Evil apparently did not want patent protection, but probably has copyright protection.
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Old 11-20-2012, 07:23 PM   #20
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Yeah this is "meh". It's just businesses doing what businesses do. Think of Windows "stealing" (snerk) Apple's desktop-with-trash-and-folders interface and becoming immensely more popular than the Macintosh OS. That happens a lot; a number of companies have stolen various markets out from under Apple by taking what Apple does and either doing it better or making it more accessible to non-yuppies. This is Apple trying to defend its marketability by stopping other companies from doing that. I'm sure you've all noticed how they've lately begun trying to win the market by legally removing competing devices rather than making their own devices more attractive to consumers.
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Old 11-23-2012, 05:35 PM   #21
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I was told by a guest speaker that biotech patenting in US has been revamped to what the rest of the world uses: fiirst to file rather than first to discover.
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Old 11-23-2012, 08:08 PM   #22
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Yeah this is "meh". It's just businesses doing what businesses do. Think of Windows "stealing" (snerk) Apple's desktop-with-trash-and-folders interface and becoming immensely more popular than the Macintosh OS.
You mean the windows concept stolen from Xerox? The one Gates and Jobs both worked to steal and Bill happened to bitch Steve and get his out first?

Jobs and Gates are on par with each other, no one is any worse than the other. Both have made their empires stealing the ideas and work from others and making it their own by way of expensive lawyers and tossing around lots of cash.

What makes them both so sleazy, is that they destroyed the very thing they helped to create, which was the consumer hobbyist scene where they stole most of their ideas to begin with.

It's gone from, 'when I grow up I want to run my own tech company' to ' when I grow up I hope my idea is good enough for Apple or Microsoft to buy me out.

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Old 11-24-2012, 02:04 AM   #23
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You mean the windows concept stolen from Xerox? The one Gates and Jobs both worked to steal and Bill happened to bitch Steve and get his out first?
The Macintosh, with its version of a windowing interface, went on sale to the public on January 24, 1984. Microsoft Windows was announced in November 1983, but was not available to the public until Windows 1.0 went on sale in November of 1985.

I'm not quite sure how you interpret "get his out". I also have no knowledge of when either of their companies files patents for either system.
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Old 11-24-2012, 02:10 AM   #24
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It was my understanding that Gates struck a deal to sell his version of Windows before Steve release the Apple w it's version of 'Windows' and, in effect, completely stabbed Steve in the back as the two of them had been collaborating on ideas (stealing them from Xerox) for the good of all things computing (Gates wanted Money and Power Steve wanted Recognition and Power, both wanted to be a demi-god of some sort).
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:29 AM   #25
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Apple didn't "steal" anything from Xerox. He bought it for a ridiculously low price because Xerox didn't realize the potential. But he did pay for it.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:10 AM   #26
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Apple didn't "steal" anything from Xerox. He bought it for a ridiculously low price because Xerox didn't realize the potential. But he did pay for it.
According to Wikipedia, Xerox apparently did not think that Apple paid for the GUI developed at Xerox PARC.

QUOTE
The first successful commercial GUI product was the Apple Macintosh, which was heavily inspired by PARC's work; Xerox was allowed to buy pre-IPO stock from Apple, in exchange for engineer visits [6]

Much later, in the midst of the 1988–1994 Apple v. Microsoft lawsuit, in which Apple accused Microsoft of violating its copyright by appropriating the use of the "look and feel" of the Apple Macintosh GUI, Xerox also sued Apple on similar grounds. The Xerox lawsuit was dismissed because the presiding judge dismissed most of Xerox's complaints as being inappropriate for a variety of legal reasons.[7]

However, Apple's designs included quite a few concepts that were not part of (or were non-trivial advances to) the prototype developed at PARC. For example:[6]
  • Direct manipulation of widgets
  • Menu bars
  • Pull-down menus
  • The trash
  • Overlapping windows

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xerox_P...ption_by_Apple

I don't know where you got your information that Apple paid anything for the Xerox PARC GUI; I'd love to see it. For more than 25 years, it has been generally accepted knowledge in Silicon Valley that Apple stole the Xerox PARC GUI, that Apple did not invent it and that Apple's claim of being the GUI innovator was a hollow one.
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Old 11-24-2012, 01:27 PM   #27
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I'll have to research the rest but I fully agree that Apple did not invent the GUI. The definitely improved it dramatically before going to market but PARC definitely had it first.

But just like the mouse, almost nothing was created by the big companies. Primitive versions existed before the big companies got ahold of it
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Old 11-24-2012, 04:15 PM   #28
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Xerox was an enormous company, dripping in profits: hence, Xerox PARC. Also, re the computer mouse: SRI is not a small company. It was not a small company, back when, too.

QUOTE
The trackball, a related pointing device, was invented by Tom Cranston, Fred Longstaff and Kenyon Taylor working on the Royal Canadian Navy's DATAR project in 1952. It used a standard Canadian five-pin bowling ball. It was not patented, as it was a secret military project.[4]

Independently, Douglas Engelbart at the Stanford Research Institute (now SRI International) invented the first mouse prototype in 1963, with the assistance of his colleague Bill English.[5] They christened the device the mouse as early models had a cord attached to the rear part of the device looking like a tail and generally resembling the common mouse.[6] Engelbart never received any royalties for it, as his patent ran out before it became widely used in personal computers.[7] The invention of the mouse was just a small part of Engelbart's much larger project, aimed at augmenting human intellect via the Augmentation Research Center.[8]

Several other experimental pointing-devices developed for Engelbart's oN-Line System (NLS) exploited different body movements – for example, head-mounted devices attached to the chin or nose – but ultimately the mouse won out because of its simplicity and convenience. The first mouse, a bulky device (pictured) used two wheels perpendicular to each other: the rotation of each wheel translated into motion along one axis.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_(...ng)#Early_mice
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:27 PM   #29
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Apple didn't "steal" anything from Xerox. He bought it for a ridiculously low price because Xerox didn't realize the potential. But he did pay for it.
No, he didn't. No one paid Xerox for the ideas and concepts that were STOLEN from them.
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Old 11-24-2012, 07:29 PM   #30
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I'll have to research the rest but I fully agree that Apple did not invent the GUI. The definitely improved it dramatically before going to market but PARC definitely had it first.

But just like the mouse, almost nothing was created by the big companies. Primitive versions existed before the big companies got ahold of it
Both GATES and JOBS were working together to usurp the technology from Xerox, because Xerox wasn't interested in pursuing a 'home computer', most people thought the idea was ridiculous (back when people thought with their minds instead of relying on their smartphones).

You're Apple FanBoi is showing, you might want to get something to cover that up.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:45 PM   #31
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As long as we're all pissing on each others version of history and Real Life Facts, I'd like to see documentation that Jobs and Gates were WORKING TOGETHER to lift stuff from Xerox PARC. I realize that much of both of their OS's are based on those earlier concepts, but doing this in collusion?

This is something I hadn't heard before.
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:50 PM   #32
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As long as we're all pissing on each others version of history and Real Life Facts, I'd like to see documentation that Jobs and Gates were WORKING TOGETHER to lift stuff from Xerox PARC. I realize that much of both of their OS's are based on those earlier concepts, but doing this in collusion?

This is something I hadn't heard before.
Documentation? Not sure where I'd find anything concrete but I'll take a look in a bit after I settle in

Collusion might be a strong word both of them were making a move to steal the GUI from Xerox (and a few other concepts like the mouse) and Bill was able to get Steve to share notes (because they were farther along the path than Bill and his team) under the guise of helping each other for the greater good, after which Bill pretty much stuck it to him.

All of this happened long before I was around to have any recollection of dates and times or news articles, etc. If it's not true it sure has become a widely accepted myth in many a tech-circle. I did a paper on these two back in HS but I'd be hard pressed to locate the paper let alone the sources for the paper (I'm sure it's buried on some form of media in a box somewhere).
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Old 11-24-2012, 08:55 PM   #33
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A brief Google tosses this up for review....

Quote:
Steve Jobs and Bill Gates have had many business dealings dating back to the 1977 release of the AppleSoft BASIC programming language. The name came from joining "Apple" and "Microsoft." Gates went on to program for the early Mac computers which led to disputes about how much of the Mac's features were "borrowed" by Windows.
And if you listen to Jobs he claims much of Windows was 'borrowed' from the Mac.

ETA: A quote from Jobs Biography - “Bill is basically unimaginative and has never invented anything, which is why I think he’s more comfortable now in philanthropy than technology. He just shamelessly ripped off other people’s ideas.”
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:13 PM   #34
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I remember vividly a contemporary experience, back in 1979 or 1980. I needed a computer to run a simple simulation program. Available to me, we had one brand new Apple II and one 8086 based software development computer system. We had a manual for Apple Basic and a manual for the C/PM OS with a Microsoft manual for FORTRAN running under the C/PM OS. The Apple manual was totally useless to me, whereas the Microsoft manual was well written and concise, clear, and useful. Guess which I chose to run my simulation program?
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:41 PM   #35
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ETA: it's CP/M, not C/PM. I shoulda looked it up first. Not that anyone cares, except me.
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Old 11-24-2012, 09:50 PM   #36
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Lain, I think that is more in line with my understanding: these were two fairly ruthless individuals (IMHO, Jobs because he was ruthless in pursuit of an ephemeral, Zen-like goal, Gates because he was amorally after fame and fortune). At that time, they were still pretty damn young. That they had some shared history, and both saw an opportunity to raid the cookie jar, has led to all manner of speculation.

Without going into detail, I think Govi and I have been involved in computers for around the same amount of time. When I decided to pursue a second career in software, one of the things that helped me decide that was the book "Programmers at Work". (Side-note: this was written 26 years ago, and four years ago someone put up a page about what had become of these 19 pioneers of the industry/craft, pretty interesting).

Anyway, it was striking to me how many of these people had a background in music (not to mention math). I figured I could pick a worse path, so I dove in. Had the courses not been based around early-era PCs, I might have wound up being a Mac-boi (at the time, the computer we owned was an Amiga), but to do work at home I bought a PC clone. Good grief, what I paid for that thing, which probably has a lot less power than most of the phones on the street these days.

I've digressed too much, but bear in mind that at least a couple of us did manage to experience these people and events in near real-time.

Good times, in fact.
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Old 11-24-2012, 10:38 PM   #37
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Ok, even if I was backwards about Apple releasing before Microsoft, both parties are guilty of theft of intellectual property on levels that stagger the mind. That was really the only point I was making. The only one with room to whine about getting jacked is Xerox.

It's funny, when I'm in discussions with Apple FanBoi's I'm a Microsoft troll and when I'm in same arguments with Microsoft FanBoi's I'm an Apple troll, or an OpenSource nutter. Both sides seem to be unwilling to admit that the Empires they idolize were built on the backs of people who never received any of the credit, or the payoff.

Oh, and FTR GooglePlay (which was recently installed on my Kindle Fire that I rooted and upgraded to Android JellyBean - OpenSource ftw) has that page flip whatsthewhozits before Apple did.

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Old 11-24-2012, 11:17 PM   #38
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Oh, and FTR GooglePlay (which was recently installed on my Kindle Fire that I rooted and upgraded to Android JellyBean - OpenSource ftw) has that page flip whatsthewhozits before Apple did.
Jaysus, that's worse than reading Luc typing Scottish.

Hey, Xerox made hay in their day, they weren't little children. That was one big-ass corporation, and the monumental work done at PARC has a deep and long legacy. If any of this stuff really bothered them, they certainly could have launched the lawsuits decades ago. (Did they? I don't know, I don't tend to follow this stuff, legally...).

I wish I could have taken a tour of the PARC campus. The closest I've ever gotten to that kind of braintrust is hanging out at the Salk Institute. Just walking the halls there seems to make your brain tingle.
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Old 11-24-2012, 11:39 PM   #39
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What kind of shit is that? It's ok that Steve Jobs is a big fat liar pants and ripped off the Xerox/PARC GUI because they didn't sue his ass off? I disagree.

And, that doesn't even come close to making a case for the untold number of NOT so huge corporations and/or individuals he nabbed ideas from to incorporate into his devices/software (yes Gates did it too).

Seems to me as if it was some sort of super-powerful, rich-guy tech mogul one-up type competition. I can steal more shit than you can and get away with it.

:P
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:09 AM   #40
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Had I been a patent examiner at the time of PARC's invention of its GUI, then Apple's & Microsoft's appropriations, if any patents issued to any of them, I would certainly consider whether there was any grounds to establish uniqueness and inspiration, because companies like Computervision were around who had graphical user interfaces embedded in their CAD (Computer Aided Design) products. How much of a leap is it to go from the GUI of such a product to the GUI of the first Mac OS and Windows 1.0? Not much, in my estimation. And certainly not much in view of SRI's work led by Engelbart, 20 years before Microsoft and Apple launched their GUI products.
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