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Old 08-28-2010, 10:06 PM   #81
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Which is entirely the fault of Christians, who persecuted the covens and drove them into secrecy.


eh... that's debatable. Wicca didn't really exist until the 1920s or so. Gerald Gardner, Doreen Valente, etc. Anyone who talks about the burning times is out of their mind. There were no burning times and anyone burned as a witch was more likely burned out of jealousy or used as a scapegoat. You'd have to go back way far beyond the 'burning times' to get back to the old religions and they really don't bear much resemblance to modern day wicca.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:07 PM   #82
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when you made this thread you thought we were talking about christians being bashed in nigeria?
I don't understand your quetion.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:09 PM   #83
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i don't think wicca has been around long enough to do anything morally repugnant. neither are we organized in any greater sense. hell in many places, our clergy is not legally considered to be so -- for instance in virginia in order to be clergy you must have a congregation. wiccans by and large don't have congregations.
I have no reason to doubt this. I'm completely ignorant on this one. My point was that my statements were universal - you can substitute any religion for Christian. I support your right to do it. I don't necessarily support the things your religion promotes. ('You" in the universal sense, not YOU)

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I can't help but feel you're pointing fingers here. And I think it's only fair that if you can believe, with any sort of sincerity, the things you read in the book worshiped by people of the Christian faith (an the annexes by certain factions) then I can poke fun at it.

I understand that having a belief in something of that nature makes people feel less small and lonely in the universe but it hinders the progress of discovering what's actually going on, while at the same time promoting hatred, war, and genocide all in the name of the greater good.

As was posted earlier in this thread, more people have been killed in the name of some Christian faction than all of the other religions in total. So <shrug>.... it's all a big fat pile of hypocrisy.

I'm not convinced this is true. It is in the USA, which was the thrust of my statement. Islam has a pretty solid history of killing persecuting others. Hell, Islam has a pretty good history of persecuting other Muslims. If they have killed fewer than the Christians, then it isn't for lack of trying.

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Which is entirely the fault of Christians, who persecuted the covens and drove them into secrecy.

Were there covens anywhere that wasn't dominated by Christianity? I bet the Muslims would kill wiccans of there were any. They would probably do it even today, where mainstream Christianity probably wouldn't.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:16 PM   #84
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I don't understand your quetion.
well yer the one that said you didn't have the US in mind when you made this thread. You said that in reply to my post that we were largely talking about the US. I made that post because Caroline started talking some idiocy about christians being bashed in nigeria. hello can you not read?
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:16 PM   #85
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It's every bit as condemnable as when Christians or Muslims do it, but we really weren't talking about athiests, so I didn't include them.

If you look at the quote about the man in the sky, you'll notice that she said that one man in the sky was better than another, or something to that effect. She was mocking the argument that one religion is the true religion and all others are blasphemy - an idea which has led to countless wars, death, torture and at least one holocaust. It's not bashing Christians. Muslims have done it, too. since she was mention more than one man in the sky, I presumed that to mean both Islam and Christianity. Your religion was not singled out.
I know what she was doing, Trout. I know what she was saying, Trout. I am saying that the way she said it was just one in an endless long line of the way people phrase things.

For example, she could have said, "So one religion thinks its the true religion and all others are blasphemy."

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People are not doing what you say they are doing. Nobody is persecuting you. People are advocating the rights of others to worship as they please. I think things like the treatment of women in Islamic countries, Sharia law, and numerous other practices are almost universally condemned here. Where you see people starting to support Islam is where others are denying them the right to worship as they please. There is a huge difference between respecting Islam and it's ideals and practices and respecting the right of people to be Muslim.
As I already said in my first post, I'm not interested in debating the issue of whether or not my observation is all in my head.

I was interested in why, and in whether people do or don't feel it's fine to bash Christians while not bashing Muslims.

I understand the point which you are making which others have already made and I have already acknowledged: That in a number of cases, it is the situation where people are decrying some particular belief or practice of some particular group of Christians (without, however, differentiating them from the group as a whole), versus standing up for a group (any group's) right to build a house of worship.

That is the sort of explanation I was talking about when I said there have been some good explanations.

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I respect your right to be a Christian. If someone tries to take that right away (which is incredibly unlikely, but if they do) I will fight with everything I have for you. I was raised Christian - Catholic, in fact - and although I no longer practice any faith, I support your right to spiritual self-determination.

I don't support a lot of the things done in the name of Christianity. In fact, I find a lot of them morally repugnant.

Those two statements above are not in conflict with one another. Also, those statements are equally true if you substitute Islam and Muslim in place of Christian. Or Jew or Wiccan or whatever religion you like.

Although, come to think of it, I have no idea if the Wiccans have ever done anything morally repugnant. They're a little odd, but they seem nice enough.

You get my point, though, right?
Got it quite a while back.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:19 PM   #86
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Are you mad at me?

Why are you typing at me like that?
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:22 PM   #87
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when you made this thread you thought we were talking about christians being bashed in nigeria?

Perhaps you could reword your question so I know what it is you mean by it.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:22 PM   #88
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Are you mad at me?

Why are you typing at me like that?
Me? Yes! I'm mad at you!
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:23 PM   #89
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Why?
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:24 PM   #90
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Cause I made a joke using your name and you got all huffy about it.

I thought about saying, "where's your sense of humor?" and decided that might make it worse.

I just concluded instead, "don't make light jokes with Trout."
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:30 PM   #91
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Trout's testy--he's facing a likely night on the dog hair...ur...couch.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:40 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Cocoanut Koala View Post
Cause I made a joke using your name and you got all huffy about it.

I thought about saying, "where's your sense of humor?" and decided that might make it worse.

I just concluded instead, "don't make light jokes with Trout."
You're right.

I have no sense of humor at all.

Or...wait a sec. You didn't actually think I thought you thought I was a fish, did you? (read that sentence aloud really fast - it's fun) Why can't I respond to your joke with one of my own without you getting all huffy.

I think most people are pretty comfortable making jokes around me. I know this, because they do it all the time, and I joke back. It's part of my appeal. People love me because of that. It certainly isn't my dashing good looks or rock-hard abs.

EDIT: The correct answer here is "NO! I thought you thought I thought you THOUGHT you were a fish!"

I'm suddenly less comfortable making jokes around you, so I'll stop.

My question about whether you were angry actually wasn't directed at whether you were disillusioned now that you know I'm human, or any other jokes along those lines. It seems you are getting mad at me because I can't figure out how to address your thread. You say you don't want to talk about whether this is actually happening or not - you demand we start from the supposition that it is true and discuss whether it's right or wrong. But if it isn't happening how can we do that.

It's like "discuss why the sky is green"
"But it's not green. it's blue - sometimes pink and orange or grey, but almost never green"
"NO - I'm not interested in discussing those colors. Why is it green!?"
"But it isn't"
"Listen - I don't want to hear that - tell me about the green sky!"

That conversation makes no sense. Neither does this one. You are starting with a false assumption.

All I can say is that it is unfair to single out one group and attack them based on their religion. People should be able to worship as they see fit - whether Christian or Islam or whatever they want. I would not support discriminating against anyone on the basis of ANY religious beliefs they might have.

How's that?
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:41 PM   #93
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Trout's testy--he's facing a likely night on the dog hair...ur...couch.
I am not. On both counts. The dogs would never let me sleep on their couch, and I'm not testy, I just don't know why I'm being persecuted for my opinions by Coco.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:42 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Coco
Maybe I should make a poll. Because I definitely have *imagined* all sorts of Christian bashing and hating. There have been time and again comments made (in this very thread, even, mocking the idea of anyone believing in an "imaginary man in the sky) existing solely to mock believers.
This is a perfect example of what we're talking about. Nobody is saying you've imagined criticism. What they are saying is that you've failed to properly take in what that criticism is actually leveled against. I'd say that while, yes, there are people who take aim on Christianity as a whole, the vast majority of people are directing their anger against the fundies who push their beliefs and social agenda on society based on a the recorded oral traditions of a 6,000 year old nomadic tribe. So, maybe they're not clarifying that they don't have a problem with Christians who mind their own business and can carry a reasonable discussion about all manner of things enough for you to see this. A lot of times though, the criticism is towards specific behavior and are pointing out hypocrisy, etc. In other words, the criticism is prompted by some sort of offensive behavior on the part of these Christians.

Sooooo, if you're going to get upset about people 'bashing' Christianity, then get upset about the Christians giving you a bad name and doing stupid shit.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:47 PM   #95
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This is a perfect example of what we're talking about. Nobody is saying you've imagined criticism. What they are saying is that you've failed to properly take in what that criticism is actually leveled against.
That is why I asked the question.

That is why I asked, shouldn't a person be equally respectful towards all the belief systems?

That is why I said ty for the explanations.

Those explanations help. They don't account for all of it, but they account for enough so that I'd say in a number of cases that is exactly what it is.

But I am not imagining that there is, in a gestalt-y sort of way, a relishing of Christian bashing which doesn't extend to the other belief systems, and that in particular, we now have this understanding extended to the Muslim religion, which together with the attitudes toward Christians goes beyond the explanations proffered in enough cases to still leave one with the overall gestalt.

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I'd say that while, yes, there are people who take aim on Christianity as a whole, the vast majority of people are directing their anger against the fundies who push their beliefs and social agenda on society based on a the recorded oral traditions of a 6,000 year old nomadic tribe. So, maybe they're not clarifying that they don't have a problem with Christians who mind their own business and can carry a reasonable discussion about all manner of discussion enough for you to see this. A lot of times though, the criticism is towards specific behavior and are pointing out hypocrisy, etc. In other words, the criticism is prompted by some sort of offensive behavior on the part of these Christians.
Yeah, I'd say they're not clarifying it. And those who take aim at Christianity as a whole (or religion as a whole) tend to contribute perhaps overly to that gestalt.

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Sooooo, if you're going to get upset about people 'bashing' Christianity, then get upset about the Christians giving you a bad name and doing stupid shit.
Naw. There are always some who do that, no matter what you're talking about. I long since stopped feeling responsible for what another person does simply because there is something, somewhere, that they agree with me about.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:50 PM   #96
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You're right.

I have no sense of humor at all.

Or...wait a sec. You didn't actually think I thought you thought I was a fish, did you? (read that sentence aloud really fast - it's fun) Why can't I respond to your joke with one of my own without you getting all huffy.

I think most people are pretty comfortable making jokes around me. I know this, because they do it all the time, and I joke back. It's part of my appeal. People love me because of that. It certainly isn't my dashing good looks or rock-hard abs.

I'm suddenly less comfortable making jokes around you, so I'll stop.

My question about whether you were angry actually wasn't directed at whether you were disillusioned now that you know I'm human, or any other jokes along those lines. It seems you are getting mad at me because I can't figure out how to address your thread. You say you don't want to talk about whether this is actually happening or not - you demand we start from the supposition that it is true and discuss whether it's right or wrong. But if it isn't happening how can we do that.

It's like "discuss why the sky is green"
"But it's not green. it's blue - sometimes pink and orange or grey, but almost never green"
"NO - I'm not interested in discussing those colors. Why is it green!?"
"But it isn't"
"Listen - I don't want to hear that - tell me about the green sky!"

That conversation makes no sense. Neither does this one. You are starting with a false assumption.

All I can say is that it is unfair to single out one group and attack them based on their religion. People should be able to worship as they see fit - whether Christian or Islam or whatever they want. I would not support discriminating against anyone on the basis of ANY religious beliefs they might have.

How's that?
If you are telling me that that paragraph was a joke in return from you, then it didn't work. I'm pretty good about your dry humor, too.

We can chalk it up to a misunderstanding.

I know I'm starting with an assumption some would consider false. I'm just not interested in arguing that angle. Doesn't mean you can't talk about it till the cows come home! I'm just not going to argue it.
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:11 PM   #97
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I am not. On both counts. The dogs would never let me sleep on their couch, and I'm not testy, I just don't know why I'm being persecuted for my opinions by Coco.
I KNOW you're not testy. I knew it when I typed that; I think you thought that I thought that, but I'm not sure.

And what have you done to the dogs that they won't let the big dog sleep with them, if need be?

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Old 08-28-2010, 11:23 PM   #98
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Which is entirely the fault of Christians, who persecuted the covens and drove them into secrecy.

Disclaimer: this is not directed against Bams personally, but against the scent of persecuted-coven-descendant-shyte that I just whiffed. I HAVE been drinking wine, so... yeah.



Having survived a few years of AOHell's pagan forums, done ritual in myriad places including stone circles in Wales and neolithic sites in France, Wiccan circles in NYC and Iowa, mountaintops in the US and Europe, and etc, gone from here to there and back again, and gotten a few tshirts in the process, all I have to say here is that if you say ANYTHING approximating: "NEVER AGAIN THE BURNING TIMES"* ...

...I. Will. Hunt. You. The. Fuck. DOWN.

... Don't fucking go all "Charmed"/"Sabrina/"Witches of Eastwick" on me, anybody in here, because I like you all, and don't want to become all Queen Psycho Didactica on you.

Samantha Stevens is bad enough. At least she's cute about it.

If you want to read up on the witch persecutions in mainland Europe, and then get back to me, that's great. If you know about how the Brits didn't burn their wise women unless they were actually guilty of murder by poisoning, that's even better. If you know who John Dee was, or what Stregans are, kewl beans. But if you want to pretend that proto-Emo Wiccans from Secaucus have a fucking thing to do with the people who actually died during those pogroms [and the political witchhunts in Salem, which had more to do with the bad blood left over from the French & Indian Wars], I will have to beat you with a frozen salmon fillet carved in the shape of a pentacle. Or something.

*[fyi the people who endured the burning times DIED. Their children either were sold into slavery and later murdered, or died with them. Nobody alive today can claim to be their descendant. Do not do that stupid romanticizing shit by trying to lay claim to their horrific murders. TYVM.]

K. I finish my wine and go to bed now. Don't laugh too hard....
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:23 PM   #99
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If you are telling me that that paragraph was a joke in return from you, then it didn't work. I'm pretty good about your dry humor, too.

We can chalk it up to a misunderstanding.

I know I'm starting with an assumption some would consider false. I'm just not interested in arguing that angle. Doesn't mean you can't talk about it till the cows come home! I'm just not going to argue it.
You're supposed to say, ""NO! I thought you thought I thought you THOUGHT you were a fish!"

Yours wasn't exactly funny either, so there.

I can't figure out how to discuss something starting with a premise that takes away the point of discussing it. There's no discussion there because there is no way to present an opposing viewpoint. You are saying you want to discuss something, but nobody can disagree with you about it.
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:27 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Jen View Post
Disclaimer: this is not directed against Bams personally, but against the scent of persecuted-coven-descendant-shyte that I just whiffed. I HAVE been drinking wine, so... yeah.



Having survived a few years of AOHell's pagan forums, done ritual in myriad places including stone circles in Wales and neolithic sites in France, Wiccan circles in NYC and Iowa, mountaintops in the US and Europe, and etc, gone from here to there and back again, and gotten a few tshirts in the process, all I have to say here is that if you say ANYTHING approximating: "NEVER AGAIN THE BURNING TIMES"* ...

...I. Will. Hunt. You. The. Fuck. DOWN.

... Don't fucking go all "Charmed"/"Sabrina/"Witches of Eastwick" on me, anybody in here, because I like you all, and don't want to become all Queen Psycho Didactica on you.

Samantha Stevens is bad enough. At least she's cute about it.

If you want to read up on the witch persecutions in mainland Europe, and then get back to me, that's great. If you know about how the Brits didn't burn their wise women unless they were actually guilty of murder by poisoning, that's even better. If you know who John Dee was, or what Stregans are, kewl beans. But if you want to pretend that proto-Emo Wiccans from Secaucus have a fucking thing to do with the people who actually died during those pogroms [and the political witchhunts in Salem, which had more to do with the bad blood left over from the French & Indian Wars], I will have to beat you with a frozen salmon fillet carved in the shape of a pentacle. Or something.

*[fyi the people who endured the burning times DIED. Their children either were sold into slavery and later murdered, or died with them. Nobody alive today can claim to be their descendant. Do not do that stupid romanticizing shit by trying to lay claim to their horrific murders. TYVM.]

K. I finish my wine and go to bed now. Don't laugh too hard....
I'd like to purchase one of those frozen salmon fillet pentacles.

I'm having a BBQ next weekend and my neighbors are awfully churchy-like. I bet that would really flip them out.

SHUT UP AND EAT YOUR DEMON FISH OR I'LL DEVOUR YOUR SOUL FOR DESSERT!!!!
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:28 PM   #101
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You're supposed to say, ""NO! I thought you thought I thought you THOUGHT you were a fish!"

Yours wasn't exactly funny either, so there.

I can't figure out how to discuss something starting with a premise that takes away the point of discussing it. There's no discussion there because there is no way to present an opposing viewpoint. You are saying you want to discuss something, but nobody can disagree with you about it.
You can disagree all you want. People can say that I'm just imagining it. I said I'm not interested in arguing that. Others can argue it among themselves as much as they like!
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:28 PM   #102
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...make that a Trout fillet. Just to stay on fish-species topic. [not that I would carve you at all, Trout, because I don't really think that you're a fish, no matter what Coco or you have going in terms of mini-mass hallucinations to that effect].
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:30 PM   #103
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I'd like to purchase one of those frozen salmon fillet pentacles.

I'm having a BBQ next weekend and my neighbors are awfully churchy-like. I bet that would really flip them out.

SHUT UP AND EAT YOUR DEMON FISH OR I'LL DEVOUR YOUR SOUL FOR DESSERT!!!!


You DEFINITELY know how to throw a barbecue.
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:31 PM   #104
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im going to bed now
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:37 PM   #105
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My take on Christianity: I really love Jesus' teachings, but His fan club is all f'ked up.

And: Evangelism is a religious take on the Greco-Roman philosophy of conquest, and was introduced into the budding xian cult by one Saul of Tarsus, a thoroughly Greco-Roman kind of dude, recently converted from the cult of Mithras [whose birthday was 12/ 25, was sired by a god, born of a virgin, died for the sins of Mankind, was resurrected on the third day, etc etc]. Long story short, I think that there was some editing done and that the Sermon on the Mount and similar are all that are left to us from the original teacher. But I respect what he taught.

As for disrespecting the religion? I do, as much as I do Islam and Judaism- for being based on brutal patriarchal political regimes.

But I do not disrespect people for believing what they believe in terms of wanting to serve the Divine in the best way they know how. Not to say I'll blindly put up with Fred Phelps coming to my town to bash gay people because he considers himself to be God's Messenger, though. You know that story...

Anyway, Coco, I consider Xianity to be as deluded as the next Judeo-Christian-Muslim religion, but other than getting pissed when they try to impose their philosophical perspective on MY Constitution, I have no problem with them.
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:41 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Cocoanut Koala View Post
when you made this thread you thought we were talking about christians being bashed in nigeria?

Perhaps you could reword your question so I know what it is you mean by it.
perhaps you could read the thread so you can understand what you type
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:41 PM   #107
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My take on Christianity: I really love Jesus' teachings, but His fan club is all f'ked up.
Stolen!

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Old 08-28-2010, 11:55 PM   #108
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You can disagree all you want. People can say that I'm just imagining it. I said I'm not interested in arguing that. Others can argue it among themselves as much as they like!

Ok, somehow you've induced me to feel drugged, too; what are we gonna talk about if we're not gonna talk about your OP? We can derail--I'm rather fond of assaulting all Abrahamaic religions in writing, so we could do that and defeat your proposition (OP): equal bashing for all three major branches of Abraham's deity.
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Old 08-29-2010, 01:02 AM   #109
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I can't figure out how to discuss something starting with a premise that takes away the point of discussing it. There's no discussion there because there is no way to present an opposing viewpoint. You are saying you want to discuss something, but nobody can disagree with you about it.


This thread has me completely confused.
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Old 08-29-2010, 01:14 AM   #110
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Praise the Lord.
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Old 08-29-2010, 01:50 AM   #111
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...make that a Trout fillet. Just to stay on fish-species topic. [not that I would carve you at all, Trout, because I don't really think that you're a fish, no matter what Coco or you have going in terms of mini-mass hallucinations to that effect].
Stop with the Dolcett already!
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:54 AM   #112
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well yer the one that said you didn't have the US in mind when you made this thread. You said that in reply to my post that we were largely talking about the US. I made that post because Caroline started talking some idiocy about christians being bashed in nigeria. hello can you not read?

Well 300 were murdered for being christian and I dont think its idiocy when you posted that christians were not being killed for just being christian. As I said I tend to adopt a global perspective and didnt realise the thread applied to the US and americans attitudes. Sorry, my bad.




Although the fact that you think this is idiocy would tend to support Cocos thinking that there is respect for islam and not so much for christians.









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Old 08-29-2010, 09:29 AM   #113
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Well 300 were murdered for being christian and I dont think its idiocy when you posted that christians were not being killed for just being christian. As I said I tend to adopt a global perspective and didnt realise the thread applied to the US and americans attitudes. Sorry, my bad.


Although the fact that you think this is idiocy would tend to support Cocos thinking that there is respect for islam and not so much for christians.
i think this is idiocy to take something out of context. which you did. coco is not talking about christian persecution in nigeria. she's talking about it on this board -- i don't think there's any one participating here from nigeria but i could be wrong. the majority of folks that post here come from the US and there's a smattering of folk from europe and germany -- these are not places where christianity is persecuted but they ARE places where muslim is persecuted. geesh get your head out of your ass for once. i think you are deliberately trying to confuse the conversation.
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Old 08-29-2010, 09:57 AM   #114
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i think this is idiocy to take something out of context. which you did. coco is not talking about christian persecution in nigeria. she's talking about it on this board -- i don't think there's any one participating here from nigeria but i could be wrong. the majority of folks that post here come from the US and there's a smattering of folk from europe and germany -- these are not places where christianity is persecuted but they ARE places where muslim is persecuted. geesh get your head out of your ass for once. i think you are deliberately trying to confuse the conversation.

I didnt see the OP as being UScentric or soley about this board. I thought it was an inquiry about the the disparity in the respect shown islam compared to that of christianity. Again, my apologies, my bad.









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Old 08-29-2010, 10:43 AM   #115
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I didnt see the OP as being UScentric or soley about this board. I thought it was an inquiry about the the disparity in the respect shown islam compared to that of christianity. Again, my apologies, my bad.









.

from the OP:

Quote:
I noticed in the politics forum a thread about understanding Islam.

Now understand, this is just a general gestalt observation - has nothing to do with any individual.

But my general gestalt observation in this forum (and I believe also SLU) is a strong tendency to ridicule, and even fear, Christians. While there is this increasing solemn admonition to be understanding of and respectful toward the religion of Islam, which is a growing tendency.
Again, I think this sets a tone for the respect/disrespect being, in general, about the countries of the people that frequent these two boards. There is nothing to indicate that the subject encompasses a worldwide view.

Furthermore to encompass a worldwide view you'd have to take into consideration the considerable repression, wars, and crusades started in the name of christianity. The muslim fatwahs are a more recent development. I think a discussion about a recent world wide resentment against christianity is an interesting and valid discussion -- but given the OP, I didn't think it was the one we were having here.
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Re: Why all the Respect for Islam and Not Christianity?
Old 08-29-2010, 08:08 PM   #116
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Default Re: Why all the Respect for Islam and Not Christianity?

Three words.

Familiarity breeds contempt.
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:40 PM   #117
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Familiarity + Fred Phelps breeds contempt?
Islam isn't very funny (a big failing) whereas Christianity can take a joke.
Fundamentalists on both side poison the well.

Any genuinely spiritual person is AOK as long as they aren't doing anything to anyone else.
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:42 PM   #118
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I should read the thread before I post.
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:51 PM   #119
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I should read the thread before I post.
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Old 08-29-2010, 09:20 PM   #120
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I should read the thread before I post.
Doesn't help in this one.
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