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Old 04-03-2010, 09:47 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Io Zeno View Post
Anyway, sorry.

NO I'm not sorry, fuck you and your atheist whining!

Why are theists so angry?




*runs and hides*
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Old 04-03-2010, 09:58 PM   #82
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Io, I have a problem with your tone, it's overly aggressive and angry. Have you ever considered therapy?

*FLEES*
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Old 04-03-2010, 10:15 PM   #83
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Sorry, they're busy this weekend, roasting Christian babies.
Damm, I missed it again.
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Re: Atheists and Anger
Old 04-03-2010, 11:58 PM   #84
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as an atheist I'm not particularly mad. The fact that a good number of people think that there is an all powerful ghost in the sky controlling events in the world, if anything allows me to walk around with the knowledge that i'm at least more logical than them and likely a good deal smarter.

I also don't get bent out of shape when someone says "god". I'm still in the habbit of saying bless you when people sneeze. I still say hell by reflex though if I really wanted folks to suffer I'd wish them to go to new jersey.



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Old 04-04-2010, 01:47 AM   #85
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Atheists are totally ok in my book, a fair number are close friends. Angry people bug the shit out of me, however. What total wastes of skin.
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Old 04-04-2010, 01:49 AM   #86
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Atheists are totally ok in my book, a fair number are close friends. Angry people bug the shit out of me, however. What total wastes of skin.
Yeah? Well fuck you, too, Costagravas!
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Old 04-04-2010, 01:53 AM   #87
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And you all get the screwdriver!
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:00 AM   #88
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lol, I scared him off.
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:01 AM   #89
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And you all get the screwdriver!
Neat, make mine a double and go easy on the OJ and not too much ice.

Thanks
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:07 AM   #90
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Yeah? Well fuck you, too, Costagravas!
As I said in that other thread, I'm happy now, Io. You can't get to me. I have the Cloak of (Giddy, Alcohol-fueled, Dance-induced) Happiness about my shoulders and bare midriff.
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:12 AM   #91
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A million dollars! Woohoo!


Ned Kelly! Someone in that proselytization program has a sense of humor!
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Old 04-04-2010, 06:45 AM   #92
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Old 04-04-2010, 10:56 AM   #93
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Atheists are totally ok in my book, a fair number are close friends. Angry people bug the shit out of me, however. What total wastes of skin.



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Old 04-04-2010, 11:16 AM   #94
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For the most part, people believing in god doesn't anger me. Hell, I gave my blessing to my youngest daughter's fostermom (the severely autistic one) because the whole family is Catholic and they wanted to baptise her. Nothing I have a problem with, because I know that R. is kind and sane.

However, when Meghan was in foster care, I raised holy hell, because she was being dragged to a church that I find personally offensive - an Assemblies of God church - and told that her body was "disgusting". When I complained to DCFS they told me that I should be glad she was being raised with morals. It was only when I raised the spectre of civil rights lawyers with long, pointy teeth that they caved and intervened.

So, yeah - sane, kind, loving religious people I have no problem with. Hateful, controlling, abusive religious people tick me right off.

And, frankly, when I'm treated poorly for being non-religious, I think I get a bit of a right to anger, even if it might make you smell blood in the water, Zeno.
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Old 04-04-2010, 11:59 AM   #95
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I've talked about it elsewhere, so I'm not going to repeat myself, but my ex-husband used my 'lesbian lifestyle' to get our joint-custody changed to his sole custody. That was easy in Texas in the 80s because 'homos are an abomination before God' and he had his Methodist minister and pals helping him take it to court to "save that innocent boy from living with a depraved and godless mother.'

So yeah... when those attitudes infest the government and courts, it's really personal.
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:15 PM   #96
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[grump]As an American atheist, I feel my anger most when Christian religious persons assume that their "simple" public expressions of their religion in public places, utilizing public facilities (for which they and I pay taxes), and taking up public time and funds should be accepted by all. Never mind if we're Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish, atheist, etc.; because we are a "majority Christian" nation and our "founders were Christian," we should just put up, shut up, and admire their generosity in sharing their Christian holiday with us. I'd like to know where in that sentiment are their Christian values? [/grump]
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Old 04-04-2010, 12:21 PM   #97
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Buddha loves this thread.

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Old 04-04-2010, 01:45 PM   #98
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There are a few things that set me off but, "angry" doesn't accurately reflect my feelings on the matter. Maybe ... patiently persistent? That better describes my emotional state. There are a lot of religious topics I ignore (or participate only light heartedly) because they don't exactly push my buttons. But here are some topics sure to compel a response from me:


-I'll post when theists defend the privileged position or status of religious persons, establishments, or ideas. Also, when a theist cries "persecution" when it's suggested that those persons, establishments, or ideas be held to the same scrutiny as everything else ... yeah I'll post.

-When it's asserted that morality can only come from a supernatural source. When it's asserted that you are immoral if you do not derive your morality from a supernatural source.

-When theists misrepresent the very definitions of "atheist" and "agnostic."

-When a theist tries to misrepresent science I'm probably going to post. This includes promoting false scientific definitions of "science" and "theory," the promotion of fallacious logic ("If you can't DIS-prove something, it's probably true!") the promotion of the idea that things not currently understood by science must be supernatural, the promotion of the idea that the process of refining scientific theories invalidates those theories, and the willful dismissal of enormous and incontrovertible evidence in support of scientific theories that may contradict religious doctrine.



Also, I don't know that it would be accurate to say that I promote the spread of atheism. Atheism is (to me) a nothing. It's a concept that shouldn't even have a name. People don't believe in an infinite number things (I don't have to list them) ... but we don't come up with words for people who don't believe in each of those things.

That said, I do have a worldview that I would like to see promoted. It's pretty simple: I would like for people to accept and value things and ideas in a way that is proportional to the evidence in support of those ideas. Now that's a something! And the good news is, most people are 90% of the way there! I wouldn't dare try to sell you a used car claiming it can do 250 MPH while running at 130 Miles per Gallon because you would say "prove it! Show me!" That's the scientific method operating at the street level and I think it's wonderful!

So the rest of the work consists of training folks to differentiate between trustworthy and untrustworthy evidence (measurable observations vs. anecdotes. Repeatable experiments vs. authoritative texts. Logic vs. tradition. etc.) Finally, we have to help people overcome the profoundly strong compulsion to insulate certain core beliefs from the same critical thinking they confidently apply to every other area of their lives, such as buying a used car ... or for that matter to other religious beliefs.

And, of course, I see this as a process of leading by example, not controlling others. Many people are going to reject my ideas (sometimes violently) and that's fine. But some will adopt them, and that makes me happy. So yeah ... not a lot of anger here.
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Old 04-04-2010, 02:46 PM   #99
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Plenty of things I despise, I don't expect the world to be sanitized for my protection.
Wow - sanitized? I'm not asking for it to be sanitized I just want to be left the fuck alone.

I don't want to lose my job because the dimwit I work for is a reborn Christian and I'm not. ( I actually do work for someone who would consider replacing me if he found out I was an atheist.)

I'd like to keep the right to make my own medical decision about any thing that concerns me; abortion, end of life etc between me and the doctor I trust.

I would have liked to live with my husband and other partner as a legal threesome.

I would have liked for my brother to not have been beaten and hospitalized by "christians" because he and his partner were walking out of a gay establishment and these fine christians just didn't like that too much.

I'd like for my brother and his partner to be able to marry.

These are real life situations impacted by people who are driven by religion to "change my fucking life".

I could care less if someone puts a Nativity up or a cross for that matter - I just want them to quit "christianizing" text books, teaching horseshit, beating the snot out of gays, blowing up abortion clinics, killing doctors and making laws that impact my life.

The reason that so many of us could read Ishina's post and agree is because shit like this HAS impacted our real life. They are real life problems to us.

All most of us really want is to be left the fuck alone.
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:23 PM   #100
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I could care less if someone puts a Nativity up or a cross for that matter - I just want them to quit "christianizing" text books, teaching horseshit, beating the snot out of gays, blowing up abortion clinics, killing doctors and making laws that impact my life.

The reason that so many of us could read Ishina's post and agree is because shit like this HAS impacted our real life. They are real life problems to us.

All most of us really want is to be left the fuck alone.

I agree, absolutely no argument from me.

If you scroll back a few posts I was commenting on how atheists hurt their cause by getting their knickers in a knot over what I consider silly things.
IE:a nativity scene in the park or three kids want to hold hands and say grace
before partaking of the mystery meat in the school lunch room.

I am a Jew and if there is anyone who understands the concept of wanting
"to be left the fuck alone" it is us.

Everything you said is worth fighting for. That is why atheists have to pick their battles wisely. Some of the battles I see them taking on is not helping
them one bit. It just makes them look petty and spiteful.

I offer you a hug and really wish you well. I support what you say.
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:42 PM   #101
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Yes. Now ask how many atheists are in a collective grouping, or how we're responsible for the dumber actions.

Or are you responsible for the acts of the Haredim in Israel? I know that as an ethnic Jew, I'm not. But I'm also not responsible for stupidity on the parts of atheists.
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:45 PM   #102
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Yes. Now ask how many atheists are in a collective grouping, or how we're responsible for the dumber actions.

Or are you responsible for the acts of the Haredim in Israel? I know that as an ethnic Jew, I'm not. But I'm also not responsible for stupidity on the parts of atheists.
You are correct, but you also know:

People are stupid and treat groups as one collective mind set.
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:45 PM   #103
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BTW -

What you just did is a tone argument. "MAYBE IF YOU WERE NICER PEOPLE WOULD HATE YOU LESS".

Guess what... not so much, no. In face-to-face interaction, I'm actually quite kind - but people still get pissy if I'm honest about being atheist.
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:52 PM   #104
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First, I live in New Jersey, so I'm already doomed apparently.

Second, this really has nothing to do with religion or non-religion. This isn't really "no god" vs. "God/s". I don't think most people would say it boils down to "you're wrong because you think there is/isn't a supreme being".

What it is about is people being douche-bags.

There is nothing wrong with believing in a supreme being. There is nothing wrong with believing no such entity exists. What IS wrong is doing dumb shit in the name of whatever you do or don't believe.

I was raised Christian and have seen many different sides of just Christianity alone to be able to confidently say, it's not about faith. It's about how you go about your life in that faith. Which brings me to religion.

That's where most of the problems lay... Religion. It's religious beliefs (and non-beliefs) that are the catalyst for violence, murder, and so on.

It's like the old saying that people are dumb, but a person can be smart. A few people debating a topic is a much more sane experience than two large groups screaming at each other, which results in nothing but hatred.
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:56 PM   #105
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I agree, absolutely no argument from me.

If you scroll back a few posts I was commenting on how atheists hurt their cause by getting their knickers in a knot over what I consider silly things.
IE:a nativity scene in the park or three kids want to hold hands and say grace
before partaking of the mystery meat in the school lunch room.

I am a Jew and if there is anyone who understands the concept of wanting
"to be left the fuck alone" it is us.

Everything you said is worth fighting for. That is why atheists have to pick their battles wisely. Some of the battles I see them taking on is not helping
them one bit. It just makes them look petty and spiteful.

I offer you a hug and really wish you well. I support what you say.
I wish atheists as a collective whole, choose their battles better too. But I think that they are as splintered in their philosophies as are christians in their theology.

People are funny about rituals and symbolism. Some view the ritual more sacred than the religion and strictly adhere to the ritual long after the belief has ceased. Which is why christian holidays and the national adaptation of them pushes the buttons of more than just atheists.

Personally I find rituals fascinating and on occasion nice to adapt - but the symbolism and ritual is not sacred to me, it's just interesting.

I do wish that as a group atheists could put that stuff aside and contribute to the defense of keeping separation of church and state as well as not allowing it to infringe on peoples basic rights.
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Old 04-04-2010, 03:59 PM   #106
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BTW -

What you just did is a tone argument. "MAYBE IF YOU WERE NICER PEOPLE WOULD HATE YOU LESS".

Guess what... not so much, no. In face-to-face interaction, I'm actually quite kind - but people still get pissy if I'm honest about being atheist.
Honestly busted, but I was thinking of organized groups like the Freedom From Religion Foundation http://www.ffrf.org and this bit of news from their web page.
It appears they have their tits in a knot over a school districts promo video where for 3 seconds you see a cross. http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=12183968

I should said it better in saying "That organized atheists groups who go after such things, do not help the cause, when there are bigger issues at stake. This just causes people to close their minds"
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Old 04-04-2010, 04:26 PM   #107
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...

Trust me - for the most part, this is just used as justification for their dislike of atheists. It won't start it.
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Old 04-04-2010, 04:59 PM   #108
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[deleted RL info]

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Old 04-04-2010, 06:00 PM   #109
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Ish, you are a normal person. A normal person would be angry. A normal person would come to hate what caused her so much pain. I'm sorry you had to deal with so much, hon. You are a good person, Ishina, don't let anyone or any experience convince you otherwise. Your anger is also good because you are defending your *selfhood*, which, to me, is sacred.


What I guess I hate most about "religion" is exactly what you described. It causes pain and suffering and actually separates people from what I believe in, which is a Spirit that is loving and unconditional and within. That has little if anything to do with all that shit, except in that, we are human and have free will. The free will to hurt others and also, to let go of the pain when it's time. I hope you can let go of that pain and anger eventually, not because it's "bad" or "wrong" but because it continues to hurt you and you don't deserve to suffer. I do believe people are innately good, it's life that can fuck them up so badly to the point where they harm each other and themselves.

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Old 04-04-2010, 06:08 PM   #110
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Ish, I looked for a fitting hug. This seemed the best though:

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Old 04-04-2010, 06:12 PM   #111
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Ish, no one deserves what your mother, father and you have had to deal with, and are still dealing with.

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Old 04-05-2010, 12:14 PM   #112
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I just wanna make the distinction between spiritual belief and Religion. My disgust is with those who champion and directly or indirectly perpetuate the institutions that are causing systematic worldwide oppression, not those individuals who follow the laws in their own heart to better themselves or others. A person can be one or the other, or neither, or both at once.
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Old 04-05-2010, 12:47 PM   #113
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I find it amazing that some people believe that an Infinite All Knowing Omnipotent Sky Being who inhabits the entire beautiful universe [except for here] gives one tiny crap about whether we masturbate or pick our noses, or smites people because they were naughty. Fear-based religions make no sense to me.
I need an agree button that can be hit many times- I am reminded of the line from Star Trek IV, "What does God need with a starship?" Same difference- if there were a god or gods or what ever, wouldn't it be a tad petty to need to be worshipped? In that I prefer the ancient Greco-Roman gods, ok they wanted worship too, but at least they "sinned" like the best of us. Those folks knew how to make gods! Anthropomorphism FTW.
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Old 04-05-2010, 01:54 PM   #114
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Truefax - I used to know Greta and Ingred (from the blog quoted in the OP). Both are very cool. This was before my MS got worse and I've lost contact with lots of people.

Greta has always been an awesome writer.
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Old 04-05-2010, 02:45 PM   #115
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[grump]I'd like to know where in that sentiment are their Christian values? [/grump]
Well, Christianity is an evangelical doctrine at its base; don't quote me on this because I'm not an expert on the source material, but I seem to remember that the last thing Jesus is supposed to have said before he got on the elevator was "Now all of you go out into the world and turn everyone into a Christian". While many "progressive/moderate" Christian churches are happy enough to just be there and say "anyone who wants to come in can come in", there's a growing number of them who feel that if you're not actively trying to convert non-Christians, you're not really following Jesus' teachings completely, and I suppose they're right about that...

...but they're still intelligent enough to realize that forcing people to change the way they think just isn't in the cards. Apparently, they seem to be somewhat bitter about this, and react by "legislating" everyone into being Christian; they take all the activities that the Bible says Christians aren't allowed to do, and concoct secular or only vaguely-religious (i.e. by invoking "morals") reasons for making them illegal so NOBODY is allowed to do them, whether they're Christian or not.

In my experience and opinion, fundamentalists aren't really afraid that (for example) their kids are going to turn all corrupt by learning that naughty things aren't illegal. That's just a pretense; the truth is that they're just vindictive. Non-Christian things are supposed to be evil, done by bad people who have turned away from God, and people without God are supposed to be miserable, angry, hateful, sad people. When they see an ungodly person doing ungodly things and yet being happy and at peace, it insults their self-righteousness.
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Old 04-05-2010, 05:21 PM   #116
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Old 04-05-2010, 05:43 PM   #117
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In face-to-face interaction, I'm actually quite kind - but people still get pissy if I'm honest about being atheist.



I haven't even told my family, because they're Mormon and will absolutely shit, and I don't want to deal with it.

Bams dad is always trying to get us to pray and saying that everything good that happens to us is because of god. I always ask, "What about the shitty stuff, Pop?"
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Old 04-05-2010, 05:43 PM   #118
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Well, Christianity is an evangelical doctrine at its base;
That's a feature imported by the Cult of Mithras, which happened to be the favorite cult of Roman soldiers. Of which Saul of Tarsus was one.

Current evangelical sites spend a great deal of time attempting to debunk the influences of Mithras as a pre-Zoroastrian cult that was later imported into the Roman pantheon, saying things like since it was only popular in Rome in the 2nd century that it was not a factor in establishing the Church.

The problem I have with that is that most of the Council of Nicea was dedicated to chucking any gospels that disagreed with Paul [Saul of Tarsus]- who walked the road to Damascus in 36 AD. Nicea even ditched the apocrypha of Peter because it differed with latecomer Paul as pertained to things like reincarnation. I mean, did Jesus really mean Peter was only a LITERAL rock he was going to build on?

Anyway, long story short, Paul had been widely educated in Greek and near Eastern philosophies, and so there's a great deal of neo-Platonic bullshit AND Mithraic/Zoroastrian stuff that he was "borrowing" from while he was writing his "conversion" ideas- after having had the white light experience that, summed up, was "if you can't beat em, join em".

And let's not even get into the bad translations down through the centuries- things like "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" being lifted from what in Aramaic says, "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live among you" [a reference to backbiting gossip, btw].

SO- evangelism is proto-Roman and Mithraic in nature, and the Christians can attempt to rewrite ancient history all they want online, the fact is there are a great many old books out there that prove they're lying, and I don't like revisionists.

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don't quote me on this because I'm not an expert on the source material, but I seem to remember that the last thing Jesus is supposed to have said before he got on the elevator was "Now all of you go out into the world and turn everyone into a Christian".
That particular line is lifted straight out of Mithras, again, AND I believe it was in a second century revision of the ending of the Gospel of Mark that it was first put down- and that ending was written in the second century: when Mithraism was rolling full bore in Roma. My bet? it was incorporated into xianity in the same spirit that bunnies and chicks were incorporated into the resurrection story.

There are a great many reasons I have chosen an individual path of "shamanic" praxis, and ignorance isn't one of them.
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Old 04-05-2010, 05:47 PM   #119
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WILL people stop badmouthing Paul, he had a job to do, it fucked up but he tried.

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Old 04-05-2010, 05:51 PM   #120
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WILL people stop badmouthing Paul
PAUL:

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