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Old 08-20-2012, 03:43 AM   #801
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Well, thanks peeps, but the point wasn't to put the focus on me. And it isn't that I think that Mero is worthless or any other silly thing, just that from everything I've read from him, vis a vis personal interactions, I don't think he would be an appropriate or desirable teacher.

It also seems that Coco is coming around, though I'll give her a bit more time to get over the PTSD of me offering an opinion on teaching viability regarding Mero.

I walk the walk: at tonight's "Pirates" concert, which I got a table for four for my 9th grade drum student and his family, I had him come backstage and see all the percussion stuff we were using, and meet the other players. He had played an arrangement of "Pirates" in his school orchestra, but had never heard the full score. In fact, he had never seen the film and was *loving* it, so it was like a triple- or quadruple win tonight. This kid could be one of the greats, and I've been fortunate to have been working with him since he was in 6th grade.

Teaching is an honor. Teaching is a terrifyingly important responsibility. Done properly, even the shortest duration student-teacher connection can affect people for good for years and years; done poorly, you could cause true damage. You Do Not do this without careful consideration. There are many, many things in life I am not well suited for, and would never take on in any manner. Teaching is the opposite of that, because I believe it is the second thing I was meant to do.

Enough from me. Long night at work, and a wine glass that really needs to make a trip to the kitchen for a top-off before bed. Night!
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:20 AM   #802
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The absolutely hilarious part is that Mero didn't say he wanted to be a teacher (only that he wanted to get involved "with education") but that is how I read it. Which makes all this moot, and puts the blame on me as well.

Such is life. Forgive me, Mero - unless you've changed your mind and decided you DO want to be a teacher.
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:56 AM   #803
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ON the other hand, some of your previous musings on teaching, Mero, do totally miss the point. I.e., "Get out of teaching after 20 years, cause you're obviously going nowhere by sticking to the same profession," and, "You shouldn't expect raises" - and other such comments

- make me think you are probably better in the managing/administration angle of it. If that.

I didn't remember that earlier, but you have no respect for teaching; therefore it doesn't do any good for you to have the other traits I've listed.
Part of the problem is that when the topic comes up, I'm thinking of the Rubber Room teachers and public unioned workers. Those I have no respect for.

It's kinda laughable to think that I don't have the interpersonal skills for it, as Envoy said. I'm kind of awesome with people, I just don't like doing it. Most people like me, which is half the reason I'm a dick online.
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:59 AM   #804
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The absolutely hilarious part is that Mero didn't say he wanted to be a teacher (only that he wanted to get involved "with education") but that is how I read it. Which makes all this moot, and puts the blame on me as well.

Such is life. Forgive me, Mero - unless you've changed your mind and decided you DO want to be a teacher.
I did put it that way ("involved in education") because I want to be involved but don't think I'm good for teaching children. I can teach adults and corporate training may be a gig I do on the side one day.

I'm applying for an IT Management position today with a charter school. Crossing fingers!
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:27 PM   #805
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But how will your firm ever be able to fire anyone once their go-to handle-it man is gone?
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:42 PM   #806
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But how will your firm ever be able to fire anyone once their go-to handle-it man is gone?
My new boss is pretty good at it. Pulled someone already and it was awesome.

It might be nice to be known for something other than documenting and firing the non-performers. Then again, if I ever get into public educational leadership I anticipate that will be 90% of my job. So maybe this is all just a way to get into a place where I see a lot of people (tenured teachers) needing to get fired.
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:46 PM   #807
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I doubt you will get to fire many teachers as a school's IT manager. Unless it's an IT company, IT workers don't tend to ever be promoted out of IT. Kind of like teachers never progressing out of teaching.

However as long as you are qualified, you should try to get the job that makes you happiest.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:53 PM   #808
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Part of the problem is that when the topic comes up, I'm thinking of the Rubber Room teachers and public unioned workers. Those I have no respect for.

It's kinda laughable to think that I don't have the interpersonal skills for it, as Envoy said. I'm kind of awesome with people, I just don't like doing it. Most people like me, which is half the reason I'm a dick online.
Then why am I not a dick online? Most people like me, too.

I don't like the Rubber Room teachers and I don't care for those teachers who took off of school in Wisconsin and counted on lying notes from doctors for their excuses. It's a really big deal for me when teachers lie, cheat, etc. For others - well, it's no big deal. Lying, cheating, and stealing are always acceptable if it's for the right cause, even if it's our children's TEACHERS who are doing it.

But aside from that sort of thing, there are still comments you have made which mean you have no respect for teachers and therefore would not make a good teacher.

For example, the notion that only a loser would be a teacher more than 20 years. Shows zero grasp of or respect for why people would be into teaching. You might as well say, "Why is he still a doctor? Why is he still an actor? Why is he still a lawyer? Why is he still a restauranteur? After 20 years, he should be doing something REALLY good."

Like . . . being a manager, I suppose. I don't know, it's just a very weird way of viewing the world.

Why is being some sort of a boss or manager the holy grail for you? Why is it so much better than, say, learned professions, like teaching? What is it about it?
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:54 PM   #809
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I did put it that way ("involved in education") because I want to be involved but don't think I'm good for teaching children. I can teach adults and corporate training may be a gig I do on the side one day.

I'm applying for an IT Management position today with a charter school. Crossing fingers!
By the way, I was thinking the other day maybe Envoy WAS thinking about teaching children. Which I never thought you meant. I thought you meant teaching adults. All my comments about your strengths were in regards to teaching adults.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:58 PM   #810
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I doubt you will get to fire many teachers as a school's IT manager. Unless it's an IT company, IT workers don't tend to ever be promoted out of IT. Kind of like teachers never progressing out of teaching.

However as long as you are qualified, you should try to get the job that makes you happiest.
What do you mean, "never progressing" out of teaching?

To me, there IS no "progress" out of teaching. Unless it's retirement. Or you just get really tired of it and "progress" on your own life journey.

Teaching isn't, and isn't suppose to be, a mere stepping stone that you "progress out of."

it just irks all hell out of me to see it put that way. Teaching is an end in itself, a life's purpose, and a valuable one. You might as well say, "Ok, when are you going to progress out of brain surgery and get a REAL goal in life?"
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Old 08-20-2012, 02:02 PM   #811
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Non-apropos of much of anything, this also reminds me of another great irk in my life.

I have apparently retired. (Took off for my mother's illness and death, never went back, and probably never will.) But all my life, while I was a writer all my life, people I hadn't seen in a while would always say to me, "Are you still writing?"

Now, okay, I understand. Very few people manage to actually make a living out of writing.

But to me it was like going up to someone you haven't seen in a while and saying, "Hey, are you still doing brain surgery?"
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Old 08-20-2012, 02:19 PM   #812
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What do you mean, "never progressing" out of teaching?

To me, there IS no "progress" out of teaching. Unless it's retirement. Or you just get really tired of it and "progress" on your own life journey.

Teaching isn't, and isn't suppose to be, a mere stepping stone that you "progress out of."
Mero thinks it should be.
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Old 08-20-2012, 02:54 PM   #813
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Then why am I not a dick online? Most people like me, too.
Doesn’t it ever get old?
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Why is being some sort of a boss or manager the holy grail for you? Why is it so much better than, say, learned professions, like teaching? What is it about it?
Because dynamic minds get bored and need to further grow. I don’t like loiterers – if you’re good at something the people above you give you more of it to do until you are managing people who do it and then you eventually create a company which hires people to manage people doing what you’re good at.

To be passive in that system, any system, puts you in a lower category, in my judgment. Loser is intentionally harsh and I’m sure I could come up with a politically correct way of saying it but, meh. Being nice gets old just like being treated nicely does. Sometimes, you just gotta spit it say “fuck it” to whatever people have to say.

I’ve been in IT for 12 years now but at several different levels. Over the years I have had more responsibility coupled with more autonomy.

I see that later on you said that you don’t progress out of teaching. I disagree – and the book I’m reading might have illustrated this for me. It’s hard to the point of impossible to do the same things over and over again and not lose that magic which you had the first time. I experienced this way back when, when I prayed every night. After years and years the prayers became automatic. I could say them without thinking about them and that upset me. “God doesn’t want me mindlessly mouthing platitudes.” I thought.

Apparently I was talking about me, not god, but it’s the same idea with teaching – you shouldn’t, in my opinion, be content with doing it the same way every years for twenty years. You should grow and change. Sure, some do but I don’t think most do and I don’t think many do. I think that the vast majrotiy of teachers settle into a comfortable rut and that’s their most effective method of teaching.

You have a definite idea of what you think teaching should be. I do too – it should be a dynamic position you begin in as a generalist until you find your specific area and you focus fire on that in the early middle of your career. Then, as you have to keep up educational requirements, you should begin to research and study topics, publish papers and perhaps move on to teaching older people. I don’t think anyone should be in one grade forever, or one school forever, or just one profession forever. We are and should strive to be more than our job descriptions and if you’re just going to loiter and not grow then yeah, you suck. Quote me on that. And no, refining your craft doesn’t count as growth – growth only occurs when you take a risk.

You say that teaching is an end to itself – no, I don’t agree. It’s a way to give back, and to help your community, but as you do it you get more efficient. You become what I was as a child, praying your empty prayers to a classroom full of children who need you plugged in and aware. As the job you do takes less and less of your active mind, you have to work less and less hard. By the end I imagine it can’t takes more than 20% of your focus to get the job done.

Society could use that other 80%, the 80% you had to invest on your first day teaching just to be considered “passable” at it.

This actually connects a little to what Dakota said and shows his/her (still can’t remember!) mentality and how he/she thinks that I’ll stick to the job.
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I doubt you will get to fire many teachers as a school's IT manager.
You’re right in what you said but, you understand I’ll be superintendent one day, right?
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:01 PM   #814
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So much! And I'm supposed to be cleaning the kitchen. Took a break and here I am.

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Doesn’t it ever get old?
Being nice never gets old. Hopefully, it gets better. But that is actually a constant, on-going battle. Because if you are at all self-evaluating, you can't help but know that in many ways, you aren't nice.

As you go through life, you then try to counter the ways in which you aren't nice (thinking mean, miserable thoughts; wishing harm on others; not caring about others). But then you get into the higher plane of yourself, a place where you can go beyond that. And you are busy doing this for the entire rest of your life.

So a challenge like that doesn't grow old, because you are constantly developing, and striving to improve, within it. Because your goals with it do not change - although you will never reach perfection in it.

Also, it's satisfying to be nice. This is a dumb way of putting it - "being nice." The goal is not to "be nice," but rather, to acquire wisdom about the nature of humans; their limitations, and yours.

But anyway, it is satisfying. Don't you enjoy making people feel good about themselves? I don't do it in any sort of dishonest fashion. If I tell someone something good, it is because I totally mean it. They can totally take that to the bank. I like being told good things about me! So why withhold praise where praise is due?

It also makes life nicer. This seems like a really elementary point. But if you go through life enjoying the people you come in contact with (most of them, anyway), and the give and take of social niceness, then that is an enriching life, and an enriching life never gets old; it gets better.

You seem to be saying you are nice irl, but it gets "old" (boring, tiresome), and so being online, you can stop being nice.

Well, seems to me then, that you aren't being nice out of a true enjoyment of and appreciation of people. Like, you are being nice to them despite the fact that you would rather not.

Seems to me you should try to get in a place where you would rather be nice. Practice is I think the key. You know the old saying, "It is better to give than receive" - well, it really is, and the being nice thing is very much the same way. You get a lot more out of it than you give to others.

And you never have to worry about being too nice. Because none of us is. Very few saints among us. Certainly I'm not one of them.

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Because dynamic minds get bored and need to further grow. I don’t like loiterers – if you’re good at something the people above you give you more of it to do until you are managing people who do it and then you eventually create a company which hires people to manage people doing what you’re good at.
Well, I am a dynamic mind, and as such, I never get bored within my mind. And I never stop growing. (I like to think, anyway.) Which is why I advocate for an education that teaches one how to think, not what to think - because that is a skill that will serve you all your days, or until you lose your mind anyway; whereas physical and material possessions can and will pass away.

And no matter what they do to you, they can't get into your mind and take away the never-ending conversation, entertainment, and growth therein. (Short of giving you a lobotomy.)

-----

I think your error is thinking - let me see if I can articulate this somehow - entirely vertically and not at all laterally. As if we were all stick figures just trying to grow in height. As if a body could only grow in height, and never in width.

OK, I can see this analogy is a poor one . . .

I mean, you think that one reaches a limit of expansion within a realm. As if the challenges and dynamics of, say, teaching, have an end point. That's like thinking someone could come to the "end" of the internet.

You can't come to the end of teaching. You can get TIRED of it, but that is different. You never come to the end of it, because the dynamics are always changing.

It's almost as if you think of "progressing" as much a matter of getting a new title than of actually getting new subject matter.

Now, I'm a very eclectic person myself, and appreciate eclecticness (eclecticity?) in someone such as you.

But a person could immerse themselves in, say, interior design, and never, ever get to the end of it.

By your line of reasoning, a "dynamic" mind can only be happy by virtue of changing careers a couple of times or more in a lifetime. It is true that many people enjoy doing that. But it is not true that a "dynamic" mind can't be happy pursuing the endless depths and breadths (and heights) of just one career for all their days.

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if you’re good at something the people above you give you more of it to do until you are managing people who do it and then you eventually create a company which hires people to manage people doing what you’re good at
You think in terms of "the people above you." As a writer, and as a teacher, I never did. Both those professions are quite independent. Of course there are those who pay you (unless you teach for yourself, as I have also done), but it is in a very sort of distant way.

The notion that just the natural unfolding of things is to then "create a company" and hire people to manage people doing what you're good at - well, that's one way of doing things, and many people go that way.

But there are a lot of teachers who have no intention of getting into administration, much less "create a company." Or get other people to do what they are good at and LOVE.

Do you understand that teaching, dancing, writing, practicing medicine, athletics, and many, many other things involve the love of the actual doing of the thing?

It's not just a matter of, "OK, I'm good at that, now let me give it up and make money from others doing it for me."

cont.
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:17 PM   #815
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OK, I'm writing too much - you shouldn't give me so much when I have to get in there and bake lettuce soon!


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To be passive in that system, any system, puts you in a lower category, in my judgment. Loser is intentionally harsh and I’m sure I could come up with a politically correct way of saying it but, meh. Being nice gets old just like being treated nicely does. Sometimes, you just gotta spit it say “fuck it” to whatever people have to say.
Passive? As far as I can tell, the word you should be using is passion. There are people who have a passion for what they do - whether it is teaching, writing, arranging flowers, or you name it. They are good at it, yes; and they know they are good at it - but being good at it isn't their primary goal.

Being good at it is almost an "of course" thing. As in, of course I'm good at it, but that's hardly why I continue doing it. I continue doing it because I derive satisfaction from it.

Some people, they have a been there, done that thing about everything: Well, let me prove to the world I'm great at this, then I can quit (or make others do it for me). Others want to prove to the world they are great at it, but they don't just, you know, give it UP once they've proven that, and move on to the next thing they might be great at.

What are you great at?

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I’ve been in IT for 12 years now but at several different levels. Over the years I have had more responsibility coupled with more autonomy.
I started OUT with responsibility and autonomy. I expected it, and I got it, at every job I've had, because when you are that good, you can.

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I see that later on you said that you don’t progress out of teaching. I disagree – and the book I’m reading might have illustrated this for me. It’s hard to the point of impossible to do the same things over and over again and not lose that magic which you had the first time.
The one starting out has the magic - but not the experience. The one whose beien doing it (and by "it," I mean, whatever profession) may not have the starry eyes, but he has the experience, and won't make the mistakes rookies do.

You can apply this tradeoff to anything. Like marriage. You can have the magic and the starry eyes at first; later you have the experience and the deeper love, and the much less sturm und drang. If you don't value what you have in your later years from it, then you will never have the later years, but will move from one to another "magic" experience - AND - you will never grow.

That's another example of growing laterally rather than horizontally. Maybe I should be saying, growing WITHIN something. Rather than abandoning it and finding another body/job/marriage/entity. I can't articulate this right.

Let me try one more time: Say you are a baker, and a pretty good one, but then you become a model, and you're a pretty good one. Then you get tired of that and become a pretty good mechanic, after which you go to law school.

Just HOW good can you be at any one of these, really? Dilettantism - much as I love and adore it - has its downsides.

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I experienced this way back when, when I prayed every night. After years and years the prayers became automatic. I could say them without thinking about them and that upset me. “God doesn’t want me mindlessly mouthing platitudes.” I thought.
My prayers, every night, are largely the same thing over and over again, and if I wanted to, I guess I could say them without thinking about them, possibly. But I don't. I mean them deeply each and every time I pray them.

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Apparently I was talking about me, not god, but it’s the same idea with teaching – you shouldn’t, in my opinion, be content with doing it the same way every years for twenty years. You should grow and change. Sure, some do but I don’t think most do and I don’t think many do. I think that the vast majrotiy of teachers settle into a comfortable rut and that’s their most effective method of teaching.
EVERYBODY settles into a comfortable rut to some extent - at EVERYTHING. There is such a thing as mindless change for change's sake. Now, I'm not trying to get you to stop being ambitious, or to stop being ambitious in the way that you are. There's nothing wrong with that.

But neither is there anything wrong with being a good concert pianist, loving to be a concert pianist, bringing continual joy to those for whom you are a concert pianist, always new joy to new fans, getting a fantastic reputation as a foremost concert pianist, loving every ounce of music you make, and so forth . . . for the entire rest of your life.

As for teachers: They couldn't "not grow" if they wanted to. They have to constantly go for more continuing education. And if that weren't enough, the administration is CONSTANTLY coming up with whole new ways of doing things. You get to enjoy your "rut" for maybe a coupla years before they pull that rug out from under you and decide that a whole new way of doing things has got to be so much better than the last 300 whole new ways of doing things that they have gone through.

And that says NOTHING about (a) the fact that you get different students, who pose different challenges and joys, with every new class. Or (b) that generations of students pose entirely different challenges, and believe me, those generations (and the culture) do change over the years.

Or (c) the changes in you, as you perfect your craft. This is true of practically everything. Change and growth aren't just a matter of climbing a corporate ladder. In fact, that is less indicative of growth than actually improving yourself and your skills, outlook, knowledge, and practices within.

cont. (sorry about this)
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:27 PM   #816
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You have a definite idea of what you think teaching should be. I do too – it should be a dynamic position you begin in as a generalist until you find your specific area and you focus fire on that in the early middle of your career. Then, as you have to keep up educational requirements, you should begin to research and study topics, publish papers and perhaps move on to teaching older people. I don’t think anyone should be in one grade forever, or one school forever, or just one profession forever. We are and should strive to be more than our job descriptions and if you’re just going to loiter and not grow then yeah, you suck. Quote me on that. And no, refining your craft doesn’t count as growth – growth only occurs when you take a risk.
Yes, refining your craft does count as growth. And this notion that refining your craft doesn't entail risks is naive.

This idea of teachers "beginning as a generalist until you find your specific area" - what kind of horseshit is that? Some people KNOW they want to be a French teacher. Or an art teacher. Or an elementary school teacher. They know this in their dang bones.

I never, ever wanted to teach anything not on elementary school (or earlier) level. My master's degree is in child development. This is my area of interest and has been since I was a tot. I've taught older, but I haven't enjoyed it 1/20th as much.

My old boss, Helen Gurley Brown (who died this week) said - among many things she said that I learned from her - that there are two types of people in the world: Those who know, from the day they are born, practically, exactly what they want to do and are driven to do that very thing - and those who stumble around till they find what they really want.

She was in the latter group. And obviously, there is nothing wrong with that! But there is ALSO nothing wrong with those who know what they want, and it would be stupid to make them start out (in anything) as a "generalist" - and anyway, what is that? What is a "generalist" in, for instance, high school teaching?

And get this, and get it good:

TEACHING OLDER PEOPLE IS NOT A NATURAL STEP "UP" FROM TEACHING CHILDREN. Doofus. (I say that fondly.) Get that through your thick head.

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You say that teaching is an end to itself – no, I don’t agree. It’s a way to give back, and to help your community, but as you do it you get more efficient.
You are not getting it, you are not getting it still. Being a teacher ISN'T a way to "give back" and "help your community." That is, that may be a part of your motivation but it certainly won't suffice by itself.

Giving is greater than receiving. It is the ACT of giving - in this case, the act of teaching - that is the satisfaction.

It's like having kids (or adopting them). You don't do it because you are self-sacrificial. You do it because you enjoy it, and because you get BACK a great deal from it. You WANT what it gives back.

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You become what I was as a child, praying your empty prayers to a classroom full of children who need you plugged in and aware. As the job you do takes less and less of your active mind, you have to work less and less hard. By the end I imagine it can’t takes more than 20% of your focus to get the job done.
har. You don't know kids. You don't EVER get to use 20% of your focus with kids to get the job done. They eventually "win" and you retire, lol. But you never got through it without being 100% there. Unless you're in the teacher's lounge.

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Society could use that other 80%, the 80% you had to invest on your first day teaching just to be considered “passable” at it.
It's like any other job. You have to scramble like crazy at first, because you have no experience, don't know what you're doing, and don't know what will work and what won't. You gotta overcompensate.

Your notion of everybody playing musical chairs and getting a new career after 20 years would TOTALLY SACRIFICE all the knowledge of the ones who are not only exceptional (and passionate about it), but also experienced.

And who the hell cares what "society" could use? Don't you want to enjoy your work? If you don't enjoy your work, then "society" won't get much out of you anyway.
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:31 PM   #817
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Mero lecturing us on what society needs, is like Thom Robb telling us what's in the best interests of black Americans.
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:32 PM   #818
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You say that teaching is an end to itself – no, I don’t agree. It’s a way to give back, and to help your community, but as you do it you get more efficient. You become what I was as a child, praying your empty prayers to a classroom full of children who need you plugged in and aware. As the job you do takes less and less of your active mind, you have to work less and less hard. By the end I imagine it can’t takes more than 20% of your focus to get the job done.
Unless you've actually been a school teacher you can't possibly know whether that's true, or whether it's a consistent experience.

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Society could use that other 80%, the 80% you had to invest on your first day teaching just to be considered “passable” at it.
"Society could use"? Ayn Rand wept.
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:59 PM   #819
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One other thing. (And husband is now home and kinda peeved, no doubt, that dinner isn't ready.)

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As the job you do takes less and less of your active mind, you have to work less and less hard. By the end I imagine it can’t takes more than 20% of your focus to get the job done.
This is not only nuts, nuts, nuts, but is nuts as applies to any profession.

"Your active mind" - take sewing. You will use less of "your active mind" learning how to sew, as you get more skilled with the nuts and bolts of sewing.

Whereupon THEN you can use MORE of your active mind in things like design, improvements - the art of the craft.

Ditto teachers. Once they have got the nuts and bolts down fairly well (except for that rug-pulling aspect), they have MORE of their active mind to use with the students.

See?

You are seeing "active mind" only as meaning - learning some new ropes.

When in fact, you get BETTER at your profession as you get those nuts and bolts down, and can start turning to other aspects of it.

That being, in the case of teachers, the students.
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Old 08-20-2012, 05:03 PM   #820
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One other thing. (And husband is now home and kinda peeved, no doubt, that dinner isn't ready.)
Tell him it's not ready because you've been arguing with a moron who thinks that anyone in teaching as long as him is a lazy good for nothing loser, and I'm sure he'll be proud of you.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:13 PM   #821
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I dunno Coco, I think we both suffer from the “Not Everyone’s Like Me” disease. From the “being nice” concept to what a job should be, we both have our own views and cast them as truth. I don’t agree with most of what you said about being nice because I don’t really enjoy others enough to fake it and I don’t see kissing dumb-people’s ass as a way to grow – they are beneath me and don’t even deserve my attention, let alone deserve all the work it takes to make them happy. Not dumb people, well they are easy to be nice too and even worth working to be nice to when it’s hard to do so – they are smart and thus more valuable. They’ll serve me well.

You also seem to not see that teaching is a job and how much people like to do it is irrelevant – if we could effectively replace every teacher with a computer tomorrow, we should. Yes I know we can’t do this yet but it’s a good goal to have because it will reduce the cost of education and allow humans to do something else. Jobs have nothing to do with how much people like to do them – they are about profit, and efficiency. You seem to have “hobby” confused with “job.”

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TEACHING OLDER PEOPLE IS NOT A NATURAL STEP "UP" FROM TEACHING CHILDREN. Doofus. (I say that fondly.) Get that through your thick head.
Of course it is – adults are expected to understand more complicated ideas than children. These complicated ideas are harder to teach. Since the idea is harder it costs more. Thus, employers want their most efficient staff to do it. If someone doesn’t pick you up to do something more complicated, then they don’t value you. If you and a new, twenty three year old, both have the same job then, really, how can you even have pride in yourself? Ok, you do it a little better but not so much better that people are willing to pay you to do something more complicated.

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[Teachers] couldn't "not grow" if they wanted to.
The teachers in the Rubber Room are there because they are not growing. And while they are in there they are not growing. Tenured teachers who know they can’t get fired aren’t growing.

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But a person could immerse themselves in, say, interior design, and never, ever get to the end of it.
Yeah, I agree. It’s not a science, it’s something people pay for because they can’t do it themselves. They don’t put them on salary forever, they just pay them to do it and then its done. If you can keep finding work, great, but you don’t really deserve the job just because you enjoy it – you deserve it because it’s profitable, you’re efficient enough to do it and, as you get better, someone will want you to do something harder.

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By your line of reasoning, a "dynamic" mind can only be happy by virtue of changing careers a couple of times or more in a lifetime. It is true that many people enjoy doing that. But it is not true that a "dynamic" mind can't be happy pursuing the endless depths and breadths (and heights) of just one career for all their days.
Lets keep our terms straight – pursuing the heights would be advancing your career in the way I said – by finding more complicated work. You’re focused on breadth, getting further and further into the weeds of the work to become better at the more subtle stuff. I agree that a dynamic mind can’t be happy doing the same thing for twenty years. That’s for the “B” or “C” players or worse.

Those who can’t do, teach.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:24 PM   #822
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Tell him it's not ready because you've been arguing with a moron who thinks that anyone in teaching as long as him is a lazy good for nothing loser, and I'm sure he'll be proud of you.
Well, it was an easy dinner to make! All eaten now. He wasn't too peeved. He's such a good husband. I do believe he is the most wonderful guy in the world.
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:26 PM   #823
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TWENTY years ... ridiculous. Do something new! GROW! It can't possibly be hard anymore and if you're doing it just because its fun, get a hobby! Do it for free.

Its the whole parable of the talents thing - god expects you to do more, not "just enough."
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:42 PM   #824
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Old 08-20-2012, 06:45 PM   #825
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What's more - how can you possibly hope for raises after 20 years?! I've got an employee who has been in the same job ten years and its the same thing with her - she expects raises but the job is only WORTH so much money. If the customer pays more, they expect more but it's a service that's only worth so much money.

Same same in teaching - we're only willing to spend a certain amount on it and if you cap out, then you cap out. You don't deserve more just because you love doing it - you earn more by producing something people value more. There's only so much a teacher can do. It's finite by definition - if 30 kids learn to read, you did your job! We pay about $13k per pupil for that and, in my opinion, that's WAAAAY too much.

But, no doubt, teachers think they "deserve" raises. This is a socialist idea, that you deserve more money because you've been in the position longer.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:06 PM   #826
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Sigh.

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I dunno Coco, I think we both suffer from the “Not Everyone’s Like Me” disease. From the “being nice” concept to what a job should be, we both have our own views and cast them as truth.
My truth is that there are different strokes for different folks. Your truth is that only one way is superior - yours.

I said several times during all that I wrote earlier that your way is fine for many. I said there were different types of people. I said I didn't want to put down your ambition, or suggest you should be ambitious in a different way.

ALL I have said is that other people don't go about their careers the same way you do, but that it doesn't mean they aren't ambitious, or that they are inferior, or they are not growing, etc., just because they don't see "the one and only light" that you do. Which seems to be to hop around from job to job until . . . until I don't know when.

Logic, you need. I don't say that to be mean; I really mean - you need logic. Unless you just didn't read me saying several times that your way is fine for many. Which wouldn't be surprising, as I went on at some length about everything.

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I don’t agree with most of what you said about being nice because I don’t really enjoy others enough to fake it and I don’t see kissing dumb-people’s ass as a way to grow – they are beneath me and don’t even deserve my attention, let alone deserve all the work it takes to make them happy. Not dumb people, well they are easy to be nice too and even worth working to be nice to when it’s hard to do so – they are smart and thus more valuable. They’ll serve me well.
Well, then, don't fake it. Don't even try! Enjoy your misery! (Which includes being mean on purpose because you don't have enough practice to avoid that.) "Oh, I don't have misery." Yes you do, and yes you will. I hope you mellow out of this attitude.

NOBODY is beneath you. NOBODY. You talk about learning and growing and having a dynamic mind, yet you say a thing like this. You put yourself as judge of the whole world, which is divided into "dumb" people (without even knowing them, you say this!) and then you turn around and talk about smart people being easier to be nice to because they will "serve you well."

Well, all that is stupid. It's not dynamic or smart or anything else. It's close-minded. It's illogical. It's small and mean-spirited. It's dumb. AND it's inaccurate.

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I don’t see kissing dumb-people’s ass as a way to grow – they are beneath me and don’t even deserve my attention, let alone deserve all the work it takes to make them happy.
Being nice to people - even if they are shorter than you, or older than you, or uglier than you, or not as smart as you, or don't make as much money as you, or whatever - isn't "kissing dumb-people's ass as a way to grow."

What's more - those people you put down, they are all, each and every last one of them, superior to you in some way; better than you in some way; better AT something (or several somethings) than you; and better in some character traits than you. This is the way the world is, for everyone.

I mean, you just don't get what I'm saying. I'm talking about being NICE to people. Just like they are nice to you. (Though you don't seem to deserve it.) Not kissing their ass. Or - do you think you deserve it? You think people should be nice to you even though you have contempt for them? I. Bet. You. Do.

And what is this "don't even deserve my attention?" What IS that? More like, you don't deserve them, if you ask me.

And who are you to get to decide who is dumb and thus worthy of your attention, and who isn't even worthy of being nice to? I mean, really. Who died and made you king of the world?

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You also seem to not see that teaching is a job and how much people like to do it is irrelevant
How much people like to do ANY job is relevant. Obviously. So obviously, I'm surprised I'm having to say it.

What would you rather have, a teacher who hated her job, or one who loved it? Hmmmmmmm?

How about a burger flipper? Would you rather have someone who hated to cook and resented the customers cook your burger, or someone who liked doing it and enjoyed serving you something tasty?

I could go on and on. You are just throwing things out, without thinking about the obvious implications of the (dumb) things you are saying.

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– if we could effectively replace every teacher with a computer tomorrow, we should. Yes I know we can’t do this yet but it’s a good goal to have because it will reduce the cost of education and allow humans to do something else. Jobs have nothing to do with how much people like to do them – they are about profit, and efficiency. You seem to have “hobby” confused with “job.”
This is going beyond dumb into kinda nuts. If we could effectively replace every teacher/doctor/musician/plumber/middle manager with computers, we should.

And then, once we'd replaced all the middle managers, and the teachers, and the actors and electricians and waitresses and neurologists and salesmen with COMPUTERS - then what? What is the "something else" this would "allow" humans to do?

Jobs have anything and EVERYTHING to do with how much people like doing them, as well as how much they like the money they make from them, in varying proportions.

How could you possible think otherwise? Do you hate your job/s? Do you? I want to know.

No, jobs are not about only profit and efficiency. If you want that much profit and efficiency, then hey, death panels ARE a good idea, aren't they.

And the thought that teachers are supposed to be about profit and efficiency is . . . bizarre.

But let's face it, the idea is bizarre applied to practically EVERYTHING. Including running a business, because you will fail if the human component is ignored. You will fail because your customers will hate you, and not like your product, and your employees won't work for you.

So think about the profit and efficiency of that.

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Of course it is – adults are expected to understand more complicated ideas than children. These complicated ideas are harder to teach. Since the idea is harder it costs more. Thus, employers want their most efficient staff to do it. If someone doesn’t pick you up to do something more complicated, then they don’t value you.
Here, get this, and get it good:

COMPLICATED IDEAS ARE NOT HARDER TO TEACH.

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If you and a new, twenty three year old, both have the same job then, really, how can you even have pride in yourself? Ok, you do it a little better but not so much better that people are willing to pay you to do something more complicated.
So - doctors can have no pride in themselves because there are young doctors, too.

I just don't know. I just don't know what to say. One thing I'm thinking is, you are young, and somehow expect to be, at the end of your working life, King of the World - because that is the only position you could have that others would not have as well.

And that when you are older, you will be really, really hating anybody younger who has the same position. And they will! There always are.

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The teachers in the Rubber Room are there because they are not growing. And while they are in there they are not growing. Tenured teachers who know they can’t get fired aren’t growing.
Absurd. The teachers are in the Rubber Room because they fucked up majorly, and because the fucked up system allows them to still get paid for it, and because they have so little dignity that they are willing to take money they shouldn't be getting.

Tenured teachers aren't growing? I SWEAR TO GOD. I suppose you would be telling my that my brother, and other professors, are just . . . oh, lying around on their laurels because they have tenure?

You make such blatant statements, as if you had any clue at all. You have never been a teacher, you don't have much higher education, and all we know is you don't like teachers.

And that they shouldn't have tenure, or cost of living raises. And that as soon as we can replace them all with computers, we should.

Because - unlike middle managers, they really aren't worth anything as human beings; and unlike middle managers, don't really provide any vital function at all.

Quote:
Lets keep our terms straight – pursuing the heights would be advancing your career in the way I said – by finding more complicated work. You’re focused on breadth, getting further and further into the weeds of the work to become better at the more subtle stuff. I agree that a dynamic mind can’t be happy doing the same thing for twenty years. That’s for the “B” or “C” players or worse.

Those who can’t do, teach.
You're not going to advance your career much at all, if you don't change your attitudes. You think you can divide the world into the place where you pretend, and this place, where you say things that would get you fired in a New York minute. It's not going to work, in the long run.

And finally, your idea of "more complicated" work.

(a) You somehow think teaching high school is "more complicated" than teaching elementary school. Or maybe teaching cooking is more complicated than teaching knitting. When in fact, teaching is the skill we're talking about - not whether you are teaching older students who can grasp more complicated things, and not whether you are teaching physics or second grade.

Teaching is the thing, see. It is a skill, it is an art, it does take heart. For example, teaching a special needs child to use a spoon is certainly just as "complicated" as teaching a college class on economics. To say the least.

(b) You seem to think that everything can always be more "complicated." Where on earth you get this notion, I don't know. Where you are going with it, I don't know.

Just how "complicated" can your own work ever be? As far as I can tell, you mainly herd cats. Now, I'm sure there is skill and art and complications in that, but see what I mean?

Just where are you going to go to find all the "complications" in that?

Let's say you are a nuclear physicist and you know all that is currently known about nuclear physics. What you can do with it is teach it, keep current with it, do experiments about it, and try to push out the boundaries of the known knowledge.

In other words, there is not some point at which you begin to do "more complicated" nuclear physics. There is no reason why the nuclear physicist should quit at 45, and decide to go do something more "complicated."

Ditto - no reason for the teacher to quit teaching high school English and go decide to do something "more complicated" (what a misnomer that is). The ONLY good reason is the person is tired of teaching or being a nuclear physicist, or can't get a job in it, or can't make enough money at it.

-----

I hope you will come back sometime and re-read all this lengthy expostulation I've exhausted everyone with here.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:12 PM   #827
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But, no doubt, teachers think they "deserve" raises. This is a socialist idea, that you deserve more money because you've been in the position longer.
No, actually it's a capitalist idea, reflecting the value of experience.

Really Mero, you've been spoonfed information on this forum, and you still don't get anything.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:18 PM   #828
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I hope you will come back sometime and re-read all this lengthy expostulation I've exhausted everyone with here.
Well that's what the thread is for and, ultimately, why I'm online - I learn a lot more here than in polite society.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:20 PM   #829
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TWENTY years ... ridiculous. Do something new! GROW! It can't possibly be hard anymore and if you're doing it just because its fun, get a hobby! Do it for free.

Its the whole parable of the talents thing - god expects you to do more, not "just enough."
Come on. How old are you, anyway? 30-something, I believe. You haven't HAD twenty years out of school, much less two or three sets of 20-years's. You still think 20 years is a long time.

And if you have been working for twenty years, shouldn't you be going off to study microbiology or something by now?
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:23 PM   #830
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Come on. How old are you, anyway? 30-something, I believe. You haven't HAD twenty years out of school, much less two or three sets of 20-years's.

And if you have been working for twenty years, shouldn't you be going off to study microbiology or something by now?
Front line help desk to middle manager by 33 hun. The I'll segway into education leadership. You'll read about me when some teacher's pissed off I got her leadership position.

Gonna change the world, I am.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:24 PM   #831
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What's more - how can you possibly hope for raises after 20 years?! I've got an employee who has been in the same job ten years and its the same thing with her - she expects raises but the job is only WORTH so much money. If the customer pays more, they expect more but it's a service that's only worth so much money.

You are crazy if you think your employee or anyone else is going to work for ten years at ANYTHING without getting a raise, due to cost of living, if nothing else (and the other things would include reliability, efficiency, etc.)

You EXPECT to charge the customer more, but keep the employee back in 2002.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:25 PM   #832
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You are crazy if you think your employee or anyone else is going to work for ten years at ANYTHING without getting a raise, due to cost of living, if nothing else (and the other things would include reliability, efficiency, etc.)

You EXPECT to charge the customer more, but keep the employee back in 2002.
But I don't charge the customer more, that's exactly the thing! They pay about the same if not less because they expect efficiency.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:25 PM   #833
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Same same in teaching - we're only willing to spend a certain amount on it and if you cap out, then you cap out. You don't deserve more just because you love doing it - you earn more by producing something people value more. There's only so much a teacher can do. It's finite by definition - if 30 kids learn to read, you did your job! We pay about $13k per pupil for that and, in my opinion, that's WAAAAY too much.

But, no doubt, teachers think they "deserve" raises. This is a socialist idea, that you deserve more money because you've been in the position longer.
The teachers' pay IS capped out.

People value an experienced teacher more than a new one, and I would expect you, as a parent, to know this.

And you must have had a whole freaking lifetime of really abysmal teachers if you can't think of one who did more than "teach you to read." Or math. Or Spanish. Or whatever.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:26 PM   #834
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But I don't charge the customer more, that's exactly the thing! They pay about the same if not less because they expect efficiency.
I misunderstood that part.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:27 PM   #835
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Why do you think I WANT the employee to stay ten years? That's exactly what I DO NOT want. I want her to quit and be replaced by someone who will do the same work for less. My job is to create processes which capture the essence of the work so that, ultimately, someone with absolutely no skills can do the work.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:30 PM   #836
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Front line help desk to middle manager by 33 hun. The I'll segway into education leadership. You'll read about me when some teacher's pissed off I got her leadership position.

Gonna change the world, I am.
Look. That's very admirable, front line help desk to middle manager by 33. I am sincere about that.

But that isn't the entirety of the world. You were talking earlier about "generalizing" before deciding what a person wants to teach.

So I was thinking about that while I was baking the salad. "Generalizing" is what happens in college. And in medical school. You don't decide what you want to do (generally) your first year in college.

Once you decide to be a teacher, you learn about all of it, then you specialize in which part you like best. Ditto doctor, and other things. This was not the case for you, and you did your specializing while on the job/s you've had since help desk.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:31 PM   #837
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Why do you think I WANT the employee to stay ten years? That's exactly what I DO NOT want. I want her to quit and be replaced by someone who will do the same work for less. My job is to create processes which capture the essence of the work so that, ultimately, someone with absolutely no skills can do the work.
I already know you don't. But (a) that is because you don't value experience whatsoever, and (b) experience may be less important in the line of work you manage than it is in professions such as teaching or medicine.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:32 PM   #838
Envoy Costagravas
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Gonna change the world, I am.
Happy Hour Special: Megalomania and Hubris Cocktail, served without a twist (because that might indicate some fun)
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:34 PM   #839
Merovigan
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Happy Hour Special: Megalomania and Hubris Cocktail, served without a twist (because that might indicate some fun)
The sad truth about the world we now inhabit is that anyone who wants to do something great is called a megalomaniac. It's like you crabs run the world now, or maybe live in your own, with the actual people who can change the world live in their own.

Keep striving for just breathing Envoy; it suits you bro.
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Old 08-20-2012, 07:36 PM   #840
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The sad truth about the world we now inhabit is that anyone who wants to do something great is called a megalomaniac. It's like you crabs run the world now, or maybe live in your own, with the actual people who can change the world live in their own.

Keep striving for just breathing Envoy; it suits you bro.
You don't have a fucking clue who or what Envoy is, do you?
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