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Old 08-28-2010, 12:07 AM   #41
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We should all pray for Trout's teeth then.
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Old 08-28-2010, 03:21 AM   #42
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Interesting question Coco. As Ive grown up in a christian country, been christened and confirmed (before I was of an age to make my own mind up) Im very familiar with what christianity is. All the faults and the good parts of Christianity are more obvious to me as Ive had to live with them and been taught about their effect and influence when studying history.

I no longer have any religious beliefs and to be honest Im not sure I ever really had any but were I forced to choose which religion I had to live with it would be present day Church of England christianity every time. Theyre a wonderfully dotty lot who will perform the socially expected ceremonies for you like weddings births and funerals and who leave you alone in the meantime except for bothering you occasionally for donations for the bell tower.

On the other hand I understand enough about Islam to want to avoid it as much as I can. I went on holiday to Egypt last year...never again. I was lectured about the place of women in Islam and how in Egypt married women were not allowed out of the house, I was made to sit in an area segregated specially for women from the men because I was told as a woman I might be unclean (thats a fucking joke, if you could have seen the state of this guy and the smell!!)....and generally made to feel like I was worthless because I was a woman. Well fuck that.

The mosque in NY is an example of religious intolerance from one religious group for another....and it smacks of the old religious 'mine is better than yours' attitudes that start off wars. Which is why I think it would be a mistake to stop this building going ahead. If you have laws covering freedom of religion then they have to apply to all religions. For me they can turn all religious buildings apart from the most beautiful and historic ones into bingo halls.









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Last edited by Caroline_Ra; 08-28-2010 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 08-28-2010, 10:54 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Cocoanut Koala View Post
But if it were a primarily Islamic country, you would REALLY be bereft of basic freedoms and so forth.
Yeah... like Indonesia, which is the largest Islamic country btw... where the entire island of Bali (mostly Hindu) is horribly oppressed.

</sarcasm>
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:13 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Vivianne Draper View Post
the thread about understanding islam is directly connected to the debate about the mosque. since we are debating an islamic worship center maybe it might be good to understand a little bit about the religion. furthermore its not so much about understanding but about debunking the myths. i gather you didn't read the thread in question or the article it linked to.

i would also say that most of us have an understanding of christianity, having grown up in a predominantly christian country. however we might not have such an understanding of islam.

i'm at a loss to see how this equates to a respect of islam and a disrespect of christianity. there's been plenty of islam bashing here and at slu. mostly here.

you know i just went to the politics forum to see the thread on understanding islam and that thread does not exist. in the religion forum there is a thread about five myths about islam in america but it isn't about understanding as much as it is debunking myths. there is no thread on understanding islam in the religion forum either. so exactly what thread are you talking about?
Youre right, it was in the religion thread, i was mixed up.

I hesitated to make this thread, because I was afraid it would look like I meant you, when I'm really talking about something I've noticed all over the place.

And in any case, I wouldn't be saying that you SHOULDN'T try for understanding, or that there was anything wrong with your posts, because I am saying that that attitude of respect and understanding should apply to all religions.

(Criticism, by the way, of a religion's beliefs is different from ridiculing or mocking it or its adherents, and that can lead to a good sane religious discussion.)

Basically, I'm saying I think it's kind of dumb that people who have spent a lot of time mocking the beliefs of Christians, and fearing Christians, even, now turn to Islam with some kind of new-found respect.

Not you; a gestalt.
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:15 AM   #45
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Yeah... like Indonesia, which is the largest Islamic country btw... where the entire island of Bali (mostly Hindu) is horribly oppressed.

</sarcasm>
Your point?
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:29 AM   #46
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Coco,

The ire you see directed against Christians is not directed against the moderate, keep to themselves type of Christians. It is directed against the fundamentalist bigots, catholic pedophile defenders, mormon proposition 8 sponsors, et al. It is directed against the in-your-face, 'this is my country!', 'you're evil if you aren't a christian' types.

The defense you see us holding up for Islam is not a defense of Sharia, misogyny, bigotry, etc in Islam. It is a defense against the hyperbole constantly used to paint the entirety of Islam and Muslims with a broad brush. It is a defense against mindless prejudice against all Muslims as terrorists. It is a defense against stupidity and ignorance. In this latter case, there is no difference between the attacks you see leveled against Christianity and the defense of Islam that you see.
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Old 08-28-2010, 11:33 AM   #47
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So it boils down to my invisible man in the sky is better than your invisible man in the sky?

It's all about men wandering into the desert and then coming back to tell us all what to do. The amazing thing is that anyone ever took any of them seriously, but that's how we got were we are, at least in the Abrahamaic branches of our perennial quest for the Meaning of Life. <cue the Monty Python clip> That crazy old desert rat has a LOT for which to answer.
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Old 08-28-2010, 12:22 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Cocoanut Koala View Post
Youre right, it was in the religion thread, i was mixed up.

I hesitated to make this thread, because I was afraid it would look like I meant you, when I'm really talking about something I've noticed all over the place.

And in any case, I wouldn't be saying that you SHOULDN'T try for understanding, or that there was anything wrong with your posts, because I am saying that that attitude of respect and understanding should apply to all religions.

(Criticism, by the way, of a religion's beliefs is different from ridiculing or mocking it or its adherents, and that can lead to a good sane religious discussion.)

Basically, I'm saying I think it's kind of dumb that people who have spent a lot of time mocking the beliefs of Christians, and fearing Christians, even, now turn to Islam with some kind of new-found respect.

Not you; a gestalt.

have you noticed new found respect or merely people saying that muslims have the same religious freedoms as christians. because i think its the latter. after all, cab drivers are not being shot becuase they are christian. muslims are not trying to put the 12 commandments of islam (or whatever the muslim equivalent is) in courthouses. people are not rising up everywhere against christian churches being whereever they want to be. christians are not being profiled by police. the KKK isn't targeting christians. christians are not be accused of being in league with terrorists.

i'm pretty sure most of the folks here don't have any more use for islam than they do christianity other than most of the folks here have probably been repressed by christians at one time or another and not muslims and that's merely because most of the people here are from the states and the states is a predominantly christian country. the only actual religions i've seen support for on these boards are pagan, buddhism and hindu. and there's about as much support for that as there is for christianity which you and gle and stanky (and a few others) support in spades.

sorry i'm just not seeing the "respect" for islam or the persecution of christianity either way.
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Old 08-28-2010, 01:15 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Tracer Graves View Post
Coco,

The ire you see directed against Christians is not directed against the moderate, keep to themselves type of Christians. It is directed against the fundamentalist bigots, catholic pedophile defenders, mormon proposition 8 sponsors, et al. It is directed against the in-your-face, 'this is my country!', 'you're evil if you aren't a christian' types.

The defense you see us holding up for Islam is not a defense of Sharia, misogyny, bigotry, etc in Islam. It is a defense against the hyperbole constantly used to paint the entirety of Islam and Muslims with a broad brush. It is a defense against mindless prejudice against all Muslims as terrorists. It is a defense against stupidity and ignorance. In this latter case, there is no difference between the attacks you see leveled against Christianity and the defense of Islam that you see.
Well, that's well put. But it doesn't necessarily come across that way, though.

But let's go with this. Here are the things:

Abuse directed against Christians who are pedophiles, etc.
Defense for Muslims against all being painted with a broad brush.

So why not defense for Christians against all being painted with a broad brush?
And abuse directed against the Muslims who do the bad things?

Maybe there should be. Or even would be, but it doesn't come up.

But to me, it looks like there is nothing good said about Christians ever.
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Old 08-28-2010, 01:17 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Vivianne Draper View Post
have you noticed new found respect or merely people saying that muslims have the same religious freedoms as christians. because i think its the latter. after all, cab drivers are not being shot becuase they are christian. muslims are not trying to put the 12 commandments of islam (or whatever the muslim equivalent is) in courthouses. people are not rising up everywhere against christian churches being whereever they want to be. christians are not being profiled by police. the KKK isn't targeting christians. christians are not be accused of being in league with terrorists.

i'm pretty sure most of the folks here don't have any more use for islam than they do christianity other than most of the folks here have probably been repressed by christians at one time or another and not muslims and that's merely because most of the people here are from the states and the states is a predominantly christian country. the only actual religions i've seen support for on these boards are pagan, buddhism and hindu. and there's about as much support for that as there is for christianity which you and gle and stanky (and a few others) support in spades.

sorry i'm just not seeing the "respect" for islam or the persecution of christianity either way.
Good input.

I would hope, though, that most of the folks here have use for Islam and Christianity. And not have no use for these or others. These religions are philosophies.

Well, of course I support Christianity in spades; I AM one.
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Old 08-28-2010, 01:33 PM   #51
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But to me, it looks like there is nothing good said about Christians ever.
I don't see much of anything good being said about Islam, either. There's a difference between "Christians are horrible people and Muslims are the poor oppressed underdogs." and "Everyone deserves the right to worship as they see fit, or not worship at all if they choose, including Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Christians and people of any faith. Nobody deserves to be oppressed by whichever institution is in power."

I think a lot of Christians like feeling like they are being oppressed (I'm not talking about you specifically). They have to feel superior and they have grown corrupt because they have the power in this society. Try getting elected to office without the support of the Christian community. As soon as someone challenges them, they scream like they are being crucified. They have to hate to feel good about themselves, and any threat to their power or any challenge to the judgments they pass on other is an attack on ALL Christians, and attack on America.

Ironically, theirs is the least Christian of all attitudes. Jesus said, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." God forbid anyone do unto them as they have done unto others.
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Old 08-28-2010, 01:38 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Cocoanut Koala View Post
Well, that's well put. But it doesn't necessarily come across that way, though.

But let's go with this. Here are the things:

Abuse directed against Christians who are pedophiles, etc.
Defense for Muslims against all being painted with a broad brush.

So why not defense for Christians against all being painted with a broad brush?
And abuse directed against the Muslims who do the bad things?

Maybe there should be. Or even would be, but it doesn't come up.

But to me, it looks like there is nothing good said about Christians ever.
I doubt anyone believes all Christians are pedophiles, while alternatively there are plenty of people who believe all Muslims are terrorists/treat women terribly/hate our freedoms.

In fact, I've never, not once, seen anyone even claim all Christians are pedophiles. There's some backlash, mostly against the Catholic church specifically, regarding a failure to act upon child abusing priests, but no one seriously claims all priests are like that.

The thing is, Christianity is a much larger part of our American society, and as such it exerts much more influence, good and bad. In addition certain political groups often try to appeal to Christians by promising to influence American law to favour Christian beliefs at the expense of others, while creating a completely false impression that Christianity is "under attack".

Being top dog while exerting an attitude of being "under attack" winds up creating a backlash. Worse yet, the backlash only gives those pushing the idea something to point at as "proof" that they're "under attack". Especially in our social environment where ideas are dumbed down for easy consumption at the expense of expressing an accurate viewpoint.
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Old 08-28-2010, 01:48 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Cocoanut Koala View Post
Well, that's well put. But it doesn't necessarily come across that way, though.
It may not come across that way (to you), but it's what's going on.

Quote:
But let's go with this. Here are the things:

Abuse directed against Christians who are pedophiles, etc.
Defense for Muslims against all being painted with a broad brush.
I know for a fact that not all Catholics defend the actions of the church in regard to pedophilia, much less are pedophiles. If that's what you've taken away from these exchanges, I suggest that YOU are the reason for things coming across 'that way', not us.

Quote:
So why not defense for Christians against all being painted with a broad brush?
I think you missed the entire point of what I just said. I would say that the vast majority of us here do not think all Christians are alike. My beef is against 'fundies' as I refer to them. They are the people changing our textbook curriculum to the disadvantage of our children. They are the people spending millions of dollars to take away the rights of others and who wax deluded politics from the pulpit. They are people spreading the false information that America is a "Christian" nation. They are people, like my parents and Glen Beck (BUY GOLD!), who consider people like me to be on the wrong side of a spiritual battle. People who literally believe that I'm on the side of the Devil.

Now, as soon as Muslims start pulling this same shit (especially in a way that affects our society), then I'll start posting articles and railing against it. But that still won't mean I believe that the actions of vocal religious idiots represent all religious people, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, Zoroastrian, Wiccan, etc. You're bound to get morons doing it wrong in any belief system. Christianity just happens to be the regional default and so it gets most of the flak.

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And abuse directed against the Muslims who do the bad things?
We have Ish for that :P

Quote:
Maybe there should be. Or even would be, but it doesn't come up.
I repeat:
Now, as soon as Muslims start pulling this same shit (especially in a way that affects our society), then I'll start posting articles and railing against it. But that still won't mean I believe that the actions of vocal religious idiots represent all religious people, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, Zoroastrian, Wiccan, etc. You're bound to get morons doing it wrong in any belief system. Christianity just happens to be the regional default and so it gets most of the flak.
Quote:
But to me, it looks like there is nothing good said about Christians ever.
There are plenty of good Christians. There are even good sects within the umbrella of Christianity. I have lots of opinions, both good and bad about Christianity from sect to sect. I generally just don't feel motivated to post on that subject as I'm not very passionate about the positive aspects of the religion.
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Old 08-28-2010, 02:37 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Vivianne Draper View Post
have you noticed new found respect or merely people saying that muslims have the same religious freedoms as christians. because i think its the latter. after all, cab drivers are not being shot becuase they are christian. muslims are not trying to put the 12 commandments of islam (or whatever the muslim equivalent is) in courthouses. people are not rising up everywhere against christian churches being whereever they want to be. christians are not being profiled by police. the KKK isn't targeting christians. christians are not be accused of being in league with terrorists.
My bolding

Maybe in the USA Viv but not in Nigeria

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...s-violence-jos

or Egypt

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8444851.stm

there are other examples but I have to get ready to go out so dont have time to find links.












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Old 08-28-2010, 02:45 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Caroline_Ra View Post
My bolding

Maybe in the USA Viv but not in Nigeria

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...s-violence-jos

or Egypt

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8444851.stm

there are other examples but I have to get ready to go out so dont have time to find links.
In other words:

Regional default religion=violence and stupidity in the name of said religion
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Old 08-28-2010, 04:00 PM   #56
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It may not come across that way (to you), but it's what's going on.



I know for a fact that not all Catholics defend the actions of the church in regard to pedophilia, much less are pedophiles. If that's what you've taken away from these exchanges, I suggest that YOU are the reason for things coming across 'that way', not us.
*I* am definitely the reason I have always felt on the defensive on these boards? Couldn't possibly be all the Christian bashing?

I have not taken away from these exchanges that "all Catholics defend the actions of the church in regard to pedophia" or "are pedophiles." I figure a second grader would probably know better. Nor am I saying anybody here is making such a ludicrous statement. As I said, it's the (not very subtle) gestalt.

I do take away from these exchanges that everybody is constantly ragging on Christians, but jump right to the fore to defend Muslims.

Quote:

I think you missed the entire point of what I just said. I would say that the vast majority of us here do not think all Christians are alike. My beef is against 'fundies' as I refer to them. They are the people changing our textbook curriculum to the disadvantage of our children. They are the people spending millions of dollars to take away the rights of others and who wax deluded politics from the pulpit. They are people spreading the false information that America is a "Christian" nation. They are people, like my parents and Glen Beck (BUY GOLD!), who consider people like me to be on the wrong side of a spiritual battle. People who literally believe that I'm on the side of the Devil.

Now, as soon as Muslims start pulling this same shit (especially in a way that affects our society), then I'll start posting articles and railing against it..
Good.

Quote:
But that still won't mean I believe that the actions of vocal religious idiots represent all religious people, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, Zoroastrian, Wiccan, etc.
good again.

Quote:
You're bound to get morons doing it wrong in any belief system. Christianity just happens to be the regional default and so it gets most of the flak

We have Ish for that :P

I repeat:
Now, as soon as Muslims start pulling this same shit (especially in a way that affects our society), then I'll start posting articles and railing against it. But that still won't mean I believe that the actions of vocal religious idiots represent all religious people, be they Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Shinto, Zoroastrian, Wiccan, etc. You're bound to get morons doing it wrong in any belief system. Christianity just happens to be the regional default and so it gets most of the flak.
OK, well, see, I don't think of it all as "regional." I look at what happens to, for example, Muslim women around the world, and think "not good." And that includes those here. So I already have something to rail against, if I felt like it.


Quote:
There are plenty of good Christians. There are even good sects within the umbrella of Christianity. I have lots of opinions, both good and bad about Christianity from sect to sect. I generally just don't feel motivated to post on that subject as I'm not very passionate about the positive aspects of the religion.
Fine. But perhaps you could allow me the observation that it is railing on Christians all the time around here, but a whole lot of defense of Muslims (and not just regarding the Mosque, as the threads posted by Ishina demonstrate).

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Old 08-28-2010, 04:31 PM   #57
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We should all pray for Trout's teeth then.
Could you pray for mine, too? Ste Appollonia might have mercy on me if there's a phone-in petition...
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Old 08-28-2010, 04:49 PM   #58
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Coco, I see that no matter what anybody says you seem stucked with your perception of reality. I am not sure where are you seeing that, but I take your word for it.

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Old 08-28-2010, 04:52 PM   #59
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For the record I support everyone's right to believe in their version of the invisible man in the sky story. They all get equal treatment where I am concerned.


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Old 08-28-2010, 05:01 PM   #60
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*I* am definitely the reason I have always felt on the defensive on these boards? Couldn't possibly be all the Christian bashing?


Fine. But perhaps you could allow me the observation that it is railing on Christians all the time around here, but a whole lot of defense of Muslims (and not just regarding the Mosque, as the threads posted by Ishina demonstrate).

Coco - don't take this wrong, but it IS you. You take things very personally, even when people are honestly disagreeing with you, and you tend to make very broad generalizations about people's arguments. If someone doesn't like a certain aspect of something, you tend to argue that they don't like the thing in it's entirety. You started to go down that road with me in this thread when I made comments about Christianity and you took that to be a condemnation of you personally. When you do that, then the arguments get very personal and it turns into the sort of drama that we've seen in the past.

As for the observation, you can make whatever observations you want, but you're just wrong. The threads you are questioning are not comparable.
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Old 08-28-2010, 05:04 PM   #61
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My bolding

Maybe in the USA Viv but not in Nigeria

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...s-violence-jos

or Egypt

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8444851.stm

there are other examples but I have to get ready to go out so dont have time to find links.












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context of this thread in general and my post in specific was the US no? OF COURSE christians are being shot in some predominantly muslim countries but that's not what we are talking about.
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Old 08-28-2010, 05:43 PM   #62
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In other words:

Regional default religion=violence and stupidity in the name of said religion

Yeah sorry Ive got a bad habit of adopting a global attitude.









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Old 08-28-2010, 06:43 PM   #63
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Coco, I see that no matter what anybody says you seem stucked with your perception of reality. I am not sure where are you seeing that, but I take your word for it.

Yeah, I am stuck in this perception; I said as much in my first post.
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Old 08-28-2010, 06:50 PM   #64
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Coco - don't take this wrong, but it IS you. You take things very personally, even when people are honestly disagreeing with you, and you tend to make very broad generalizations about people's arguments. If someone doesn't like a certain aspect of something, you tend to argue that they don't like the thing in it's entirety. You started to go down that road with me in this thread when I made comments about Christianity and you took that to be a condemnation of you personally. When you do that, then the arguments get very personal and it turns into the sort of drama that we've seen in the past.

As for the observation, you can make whatever observations you want, but you're just wrong. The threads you are questioning are not comparable.
I said it was a gestalt, not a thread-by-thread or post-by-post or person-by-person indictment.

But I'm not imagining that people crap and have crapped all over Christianity since I've been on SC, SLU, and SC, but about Islam, it's the opposite story.

As for taking things personally, well hey. How about, let's say, I'm a black person, and people make comments about horrible black people all the time. "Well, but we don't mean you, coco," doesn't make it much easier to take.

Or how about somebody says, "People who play SL suck." Or housewives suck.

Or SOUTHERNERS suck. That's a good one. I take that personally, too.

Or how about, fish suck. And there you are, Trout, being a fish and all. "Well, we didn't mean you, Trout," probably isn't going to make you any less tired of hearing how fish suck.

As for drama we aren't having any drama in this thread.

I've gotten some good points of view from people to consider. (Particularly when considering individuals, which as I said, I'm not considering in this thread, but still.)

I just think it's hypocritical to bash Christians but then, when it comes to Muslims, act all tolerant and everything.

Unless a person really, really does think that Christians are so much more dangerous and horrible than Muslims, of course, which people have said here is not the case.

In other words, the explanations make sense.
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Old 08-28-2010, 06:52 PM   #65
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context of this thread in general and my post in specific was the US no? OF COURSE christians are being shot in some predominantly muslim countries but that's not what we are talking about.
No, not particularly. That isn't the context I had in mind when I made the thread, anyway.
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Old 08-28-2010, 07:44 PM   #66
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No, not particularly. That isn't the context I had in mind when I made the thread, anyway.
when you made this thread you thought we were talking about christians being bashed in nigeria?
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Why all the Respect for Islam and Not Christianity?
Old 08-28-2010, 07:50 PM   #67
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Default Why all the Respect for Islam and Not Christianity?

FWIW, I promise you that I respect Islam and Christianity exactly equally.
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Old 08-28-2010, 08:26 PM   #68
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and less of this.....



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Old 08-28-2010, 09:12 PM   #69
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I said it was a gestalt, not a thread-by-thread or post-by-post or person-by-person indictment.

But I'm not imagining that people crap and have crapped all over Christianity since I've been on SC, SLU, and SC, but about Islam, it's the opposite story.

As for taking things personally, well hey. How about, let's say, I'm a black person, and people make comments about horrible black people all the time. "Well, but we don't mean you, coco," doesn't make it much easier to take.

Or how about somebody says, "People who play SL suck." Or housewives suck.

Or SOUTHERNERS suck. That's a good one. I take that personally, too.

Or how about, fish suck. And there you are, Trout, being a fish and all. "Well, we didn't mean you, Trout," probably isn't going to make you any less tired of hearing how fish suck.

As for drama we aren't having any drama in this thread.

I've gotten some good points of view from people to consider. (Particularly when considering individuals, which as I said, I'm not considering in this thread, but still.)

I just think it's hypocritical to bash Christians but then, when it comes to Muslims, act all tolerant and everything.

Unless a person really, really does think that Christians are so much more dangerous and horrible than Muslims, of course, which people have said here is not the case.

In other words, the explanations make sense.
I'm not actually a trout. Trout is a nickname. I like to fish for trout; in fact, it's a life-long obsession. But I'm not actually a fish. I'm a people.

And you are imagining it to some degree. What you are complaining about is a gross exaggeration of what is actually happening. There are certainly people who bash Christians here and at SLU, as are there people who bash Islam. But the majority of people recognize that the term "Christian" encompasses a very, very wide array of beliefs, practices and moral systems, all bound together by one commonality - the belief that Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins. There are Christians who base their entire existence on hatred and bigotry, and there are Christians who live lives devoted to helping others, promoting tolerance and understanding and who show incredible compassion for others.

For the most part, what you call Christian bashing is people bashing specific practices of some Christians. For example, when Christian organizations rise up to deny basic human rights to gays or when they attack the rights of people with different beliefs. I believe that if Christians wanted to build a community center and the neighbors rose up en masse and protested out of bigotry and hatred, then most people here would condemn that.

Supporting tolerance does not mean that you have respect for Islam or that you give Islam a free ride for all of its practices. Neither does condemning bigotry and hatred mean that you hate Christianity. You can hate certain practices but still fight for the rights of others to believe what they wish.
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:15 PM   #70
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It's all about men wandering into the desert and then coming back to tell us all what to do. The amazing thing is that anyone ever took any of them seriously, but that's how we got were we are, at least in the Abrahamaic branches of our perennial quest for the Meaning of Life. <cue the Monty Python clip> That crazy old desert rat has a LOT for which to answer.
Agreed. Nearly all global religions today are male-dominated: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, many facets of Hinduism, etc. It's all about men making the rules under a "male" god and deciding what's good for them and the other 54% of humanity - women. I personally have major issues with any religion that won't let a woman stand as the iconic leader of her religion. There are some female pastors and rabbis, but not many, and certainly a woman could never be ordained or sit as Pope. What happened along the way that let it be okay for half the world to be dominated by the other half and its male god(s)?

So I say: fuck all male dominated religions. I hate them all equally. I am nobody's property.
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:29 PM   #71
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Agreed. Nearly all global religions today are male-dominated: Christianity, Judaism, Islam, many facets of Hinduism, etc. It's all about men making the rules under a "male" god and deciding what's good for them and the other 54% of humanity - women. I personally have major issues with any religion that won't let a woman stand as the iconic leader of her religion. There are some female pastors and rabbis, but not many, and certainly a woman could never be ordained or sit as Pope. What happened along the way that let it be okay for half the world to be dominated by the other half and its male god(s)?

So I say: fuck all male dominated religions. I hate them all equally. I am nobody's property.
You shut up and go make me dinner.
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:30 PM   #72
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I'm not actually a trout. Trout is a nickname. I like to fish for trout; in fact, it's a life-long obsession. But I'm not actually a fish. I'm a people.
It was a joke, Trout.

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And you are imagining it to some degree. What you are complaining about is a gross exaggeration of what is actually happening. There are certainly people who bash Christians here and at SLU, as are there people who bash Islam. But the majority of people recognize that the term "Christian" encompasses a very, very wide array of beliefs, practices and moral systems, all bound together by one commonality - the belief that Jesus was the son of God and died for our sins. There are Christians who base their entire existence on hatred and bigotry, and there are Christians who live lives devoted to helping others, promoting tolerance and understanding and who show incredible compassion for others.
There are also atheists and non-religious people who base their entire existence on hatred and bigotry. And people of all stripes.

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For the most part, what you call Christian bashing is people bashing specific practices of some Christians. For example, when Christian organizations rise up to deny basic human rights to gays or when they attack the rights of people with different beliefs. I believe that if Christians wanted to build a community center and the neighbors rose up en masse and protested out of bigotry and hatred, then most people here would condemn that.

Supporting tolerance does not mean that you have respect for Islam or that you give Islam a free ride for all of its practices. Neither does condemning bigotry and hatred mean that you hate Christianity. You can hate certain practices but still fight for the rights of others to believe what they wish.
Maybe I should make a poll. Because I definitely have *imagined* all sorts of Christian bashing and hating. There have been time and again comments made (in this very thread, even, mocking the idea of anyone believing in an "imaginary man in the sky) existing solely to mock believers.

And I am capable of telling the difference between ridicule, mockery, hatred, and so forth, and the discussion of issues.

I do, though, appreciate the answers I got before we got to the inevitable "you're imagining it all" part.

And I hope that anybody who likes to ridicule Christians will bear in mind that it is hypocritical to do that while speaking of Muslims (or any other religious group) in measured and respectful tones.
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:34 PM   #73
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You shut up and go make me dinner.
I hope the couch isn't too full of dog hair.
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:36 PM   #74
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I'm not actually a trout. Trout is a nickname. I like to fish for trout; in fact, it's a life-long obsession. But I'm not actually a fish. I'm a people.

Another illusion shattered
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:43 PM   #75
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I hope the couch isn't too full of dog hair.
I think it's more fish scales
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:49 PM   #76
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There are also atheists and non-religious people who base their entire existence on hatred and bigotry. And people of all stripes.
It's every bit as condemnable as when Christians or Muslims do it, but we really weren't talking about athiests, so I didn't include them.


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Maybe I should make a poll. Because I definitely have *imagined* all sorts of Christian bashing and hating. There have been time and again comments made (in this very thread, even, mocking the idea of anyone believing in an "imaginary man in the sky) existing solely to mock believers.

And I am capable of telling the difference between ridicule, mockery, hatred, and so forth, and the discussion of issues.

I do, though, appreciate the answers I got before we got to the inevitable "you're imagining it all" part.

And I hope that anybody who likes to ridicule Christians will bear in mind that it is hypocritical to do that while speaking of Muslims (or any other religious group) in measured and respectful tones.
If you look at the quote about the man in the sky, you'll notice that she said that one man in the sky was better than another, or something to that effect. She was mocking the argument that one religion is the true religion and all others are blasphemy - an idea which has led to countless wars, death, torture and at least one holocaust. It's not bashing Christians. Muslims have done it, too. since she was mention more than one man in the sky, I presumed that to mean both Islam and Christianity. Your religion was not singled out.

People are not doing what you say they are doing. Nobody is persecuting you. People are advocating the rights of others to worship as they please. I think things like the treatment of women in Islamic countries, Sharia law, and numerous other practices are almost universally condemned here. Where you see people starting to support Islam is where others are denying them the right to worship as they please. There is a huge difference between respecting Islam and it's ideals and practices and respecting the right of people to be Muslim.

I respect your right to be a Christian. If someone tries to take that right away (which is incredibly unlikely, but if they do) I will fight with everything I have for you. I was raised Christian - Catholic, in fact - and although I no longer practice any faith, I support your right to spiritual self-determination.

I don't support a lot of the things done in the name of Christianity. In fact, I find a lot of them morally repugnant.

Those two statements above are not in conflict with one another. Also, those statements are equally true if you substitute Islam and Muslim in place of Christian. Or Jew or Wiccan or whatever religion you like.

Although, come to think of it, I have no idea if the Wiccans have ever done anything morally repugnant. They're a little odd, but they seem nice enough.

You get my point, though, right?
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:50 PM   #77
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I hope the couch isn't too full of dog hair.
Currently, it's too full of dogs to tell.
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:54 PM   #78
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It's every bit as condemnable as when Christians or Muslims do it, but we really weren't talking about athiests, so I didn't include them.




If you look at the quote about the man in the sky, you'll notice that she said that one man in the sky was better than another, or something to that effect. She was mocking the argument that one religion is the true religion and all others are blasphemy - an idea which has led to countless wars, death, torture and at least one holocaust. It's not bashing Christians. Muslims have done it, too. since she was mention more than one man in the sky, I presumed that to mean both Islam and Christianity. Your religion was not singled out.

People are not doing what you say they are doing. Nobody is persecuting you. People are advocating the rights of others to worship as they please. I think things like the treatment of women in Islamic countries, Sharia law, and numerous other practices are almost universally condemned here. Where you see people starting to support Islam is where others are denying them the right to worship as they please. There is a huge difference between respecting Islam and it's ideals and practices and respecting the right of people to be Muslim.

I respect your right to be a Christian. If someone tries to take that right away (which is incredibly unlikely, but if they do) I will fight with everything I have for you. I was raised Christian - Catholic, in fact - and although I no longer practice any faith, I support your right to spiritual self-determination.

I don't support a lot of the things done in the name of Christianity. In fact, I find a lot of them morally repugnant.

Those two statements above are not in conflict with one another. Also, those statements are equally true if you substitute Islam and Muslim in place of Christian. Or Jew or Wiccan or whatever religion you like.

Although, come to think of it, I have no idea if the Wiccans have ever done anything morally repugnant. They're a little odd, but they seem nice enough.

You get my point, though, right?
i don't think wicca has been around long enough to do anything morally repugnant. neither are we organized in any greater sense. hell in many places, our clergy is not legally considered to be so -- for instance in virginia in order to be clergy you must have a congregation. wiccans by and large don't have congregations.
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Old 08-28-2010, 09:58 PM   #79
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Maybe I should make a poll. Because I definitely have *imagined* all sorts of Christian bashing and hating. There have been time and again comments made (in this very thread, even, mocking the idea of anyone believing in an "imaginary man in the sky) existing solely to mock believers.

And I am capable of telling the difference between ridicule, mockery, hatred, and so forth, and the discussion of issues.
.
I can't help but feel you're pointing fingers here. And I think it's only fair that if you can believe, with any sort of sincerity, the things you read in the book worshiped by people of the Christian faith (an the annexes by certain factions) then I can poke fun at it.

I understand that having a belief in something of that nature makes people feel less small and lonely in the universe but it hinders the progress of discovering what's actually going on, while at the same time promoting hatred, war, and genocide all in the name of the greater good.

As was posted earlier in this thread, more people have been killed in the name of some Christian faction than all of the other religions in total. So <shrug>.... it's all a big fat pile of hypocrisy.

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Old 08-28-2010, 10:00 PM   #80
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i don't think wicca has been around long enough to do anything morally repugnant. neither are we organized in any greater sense. hell in many places, our clergy is not legally considered to be so -- for instance in virginia in order to be clergy you must have a congregation. wiccans by and large don't have congregations.
Which is entirely the fault of Christians, who persecuted the covens and drove them into secrecy.

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