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Old 04-23-2010, 12:26 PM   #81
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100 L says someone in this thread or at SLU will say outright, "it was performance art!"

Too late - they posted it before you wagered, so you don't get anything.
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Old 04-23-2010, 12:26 PM   #82
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100 L says someone in this thread or at SLU will say outright, "it was performance art!"


or that griefing brings excitement into the victim's dull and otherwise boring life.
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Old 04-23-2010, 12:53 PM   #83
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Actually it's even better. Intlibber posted in a comment that the banning was a human rights violation because internet communities and "company towns" are identical (despite their... uh.... not being identical at all) and thus due to a 60 year old unrelated court case, it's illegal to ban people from the Internet (despite prior rulings far more recent than 60 years).

Mind you, Intlibber is now a student at Woodbury University (really), so I trust he knows far, far more about this than someone who merely works in the field, and I'm sure he's familiar with Estavillio v. Sony, which, uh, er, ruled that online communities aren't company towns.
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:13 PM   #84
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Idly curious, how much organized griefing goes on in SL these days?
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:19 PM   #85
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Actually it's even better. Intlibber posted in a comment that the banning was a human rights violation because internet communities and "company towns" are identical (despite their... uh.... not being identical at all) and thus due to a 60 year old unrelated court case, it's illegal to ban people from the Internet (despite prior rulings far more recent than 60 years).

Mind you, Intlibber is now a student at Woodbury University (really), so I trust he knows far, far more about this than someone who merely works in the field, and I'm sure he's familiar with Estavillio v. Sony, which, uh, er, ruled that online communities aren't company towns.


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Old 04-23-2010, 01:19 PM   #86
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Idly curious, how much organized griefing goes on in SL these days?
It really sucked in 2007, but I think they've been beaten down or left after that.

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Old 04-23-2010, 01:20 PM   #87
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Idly curious, how much organized griefing goes on in SL these days?
Depending on who you ask, SL2.0 made for a pretty major attack upon users grid-wide. (^_^)y
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:28 PM   #88
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Actually it's even better. Intlibber posted in a comment that the banning was a human rights violation because internet communities and "company towns" are identical (despite their... uh.... not being identical at all) and thus due to a 60 year old unrelated court case, it's illegal to ban people from the Internet (despite prior rulings far more recent than 60 years).

Mind you, Intlibber is now a student at Woodbury University (really), so I trust he knows far, far more about this than someone who merely works in the field, and I'm sure he's familiar with Estavillio v. Sony, which, uh, er, ruled that online communities aren't company towns.
That's what you want us to think. You probably work in one of those courtrooms that has gold fringe on the flag and puts everyones' names on court documents in ALL CAPITALS and thinks income tax is legal just because it was ratified and you don't have jurisdiction over us because we are Sovereign Citizens of the united States (notice the un-capitalized "united" - that's important!)!
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Old 04-23-2010, 01:48 PM   #89
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Oh lookie... All crimes have been solved. LL sez ther R no moar grifferz NEmoar. =^-^=

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Old 04-23-2010, 02:03 PM   #90
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That's what you want us to think. You probably work in one of those courtrooms that has gold fringe on the flag and puts everyones' names on court documents in ALL CAPITALS and thinks income tax is legal just because it was ratified and you don't have jurisdiction over us because we are Sovereign Citizens of the united States (notice the un-capitalized "united" - that's important!)!
God I love those gold-fringed flags. So fancy. So official looking. Sometimes, if you get close enough to them, you can tell that they smell like dust and old books and silk.


Oh, and Intlibber is is possibly the stupidest person on earth if he really thinks that internet banning is a human rights violation.
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Old 04-23-2010, 02:09 PM   #91
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God I love those gold-fringed flags. So fancy. So official looking. Sometimes, if you get close enough to them, you can tell that they smell like dust and old books and silk.


Oh, and Intlibber is is possibly the stupidest person on earth if he really thinks that internet banning is a human rights violation.

*coughs

Actually it was this person.

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Old 04-23-2010, 02:14 PM   #92
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Oh lookie... All crimes have been solved. LL sez ther R no moar grifferz NEmoar. =^-^=
LL tried to post all Prok's complaints against WU and ended up crashing the system...
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:00 PM   #93
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It is a landmark SL decision - in the History of Second Life. It indicates policy change and a change of attidue at the Lab.
Not really; they've blanket-banned griefer groups before, repeatedly.

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You may freel obligated to downplay a outcome that you do not agree with - even though you posted twice about it - but yje implications are very interesting.
Why would you think I disagree with it? I don't know enough about it to agree or disagree. I haven't had any direct experiences with the people involved, and the only stories I've heard about them have been from unreliable sources. On the other hand, I have no reason to think that the action was unjustified either.

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Old 04-23-2010, 03:32 PM   #94
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At some point, "bad research" ceases to be research and becomes, to use the appropriate technical term, "pissing around".
omg, yeah! I followed this discussion to Prok's tl;dr on the subject, and thence to this (hahaha) "research paper" on the subject:

https://journals.tdl.org/jvwr/article/view/348/421
Spectacular Interventions in Second Life:
Goon Culture, Griefing, and Disruption in Virtual Spaces

It is just awful. Poorly proofread (is it "sim", or "SIM"? "Patriatic"?), meandering, having no particular hypothesis or data, and containing gems like:

Quote:
Furries, or avatars who like to assume the shape of animals and who are believed to be homosexuals,
Orly?

The author (who is believed to be a space alien) apparently spent some amount of time reading griefer weblogs and sites, hanging out with griefers in SL, and basically believing exactly what they wanted him to believe. They are presumably now rolling about in the aisle with self-congratulation for having gotten an Official Scholarly Writeup about how they "subvert the bourgeois taste" and "attack capitalistic ideology".

Which is pure and utter BS. The griefers we're talking about here parody people of color, parody Communism, and attack furries and gay people. Anyone who thinks that attacking people of color, communism, furries, and gay people constitutes attacking capitalistic ideology is... well... deeply confused at best.

The particular strain of griefers are if anything part of the support structure of bourgeois taste and capitalist ideology. They are the bully-boys of the hegemony. Get too uppity, and you'll get a rock through your window some dark night. The griefers don't attack the establishment, they don't generally attack banks or churches or even "government" (i.e. Linden offices). They attack the powerless and marginalized. Even on the famous occasion when they sent flying penises into an Anshe Chung interview, note just who they were attacking: an Asian woman who had had the temerity to actually make money. Can't have that! y so srys?

Constructive transgression consists of transgressing oppressive social norms in order to demonstrate other better ways society might be run; it is not just shoving vomit-pictures in people's faces. Two men holding hands on a city street was once constructive transgression (now, thankfully, it's pretty much just normal). The gang of toughs that would threaten or rough up the two men holding hands are not transgressive; they are the opposite, doing the dirty work of the powers that be. The SL griefers that we're talking about here are the same thing, only with keyboards and at even less personal risk to themselves.

/ clears throat and attempts to calm down.

Which is to say, bad scholarship annoys me even more than jerky griefers. Note that I'm not saying that everyone associated with SA or w-hat or WU are griefers; I have very little reliable evidence on the subject. But there are people who do this kind of jerky stuff, and it annoys me when someone too lazy or careless to actually give it any thought just parrots their own lulzy self-justifications, and gets it published as though it were in some sense scholarship.

Okay, too much already. While I find any particular "who was at fault in messy griefer drama #17?" question entirely uninteresting, I do find the general "why are people such jerks to each other?" question important and interesting, and sometimes maddening...

grooooove slam, work it back, Space Cowboy jes play that track
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:34 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Innis View Post
Not really; they've blanket-banned griefer groups before, repeatedly.
No they don't. And never has an approved education organization ben banned from Second Life because for any reason - especially greifing.

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Why would you think I disagree with it? I don't know enough about it to agree or disagree. I haven't had any direct experiences with the people involved, and the only stories I've heard about them have been from unreliable sources. On the other hand, I have no reason to think that the action was unjustified either.

"unreliable sources". People that have been greifed by members of the WU I would not consider unreliable sources. And the quotes from the WU representative in the Herald seems pretty reliable also.

But here are some more rose colored glasses for you so you can remain immune from the facts.

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Old 04-23-2010, 03:39 PM   #96
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omg, yeah! I followed this discussion to Prok's tl;dr on the subject, and thence to this (hahaha) "research paper" on the subject:

https://journals.tdl.org/jvwr/article/view/348/421
Spectacular Interventions in Second Life:
Goon Culture, Griefing, and Disruption in Virtual Spaces

It is just awful. Poorly proofread (is it "sim", or "SIM"? "Patriatic"?), meandering, having no particular hypothesis or data, and containing gems like:
This is another 'good' one in the same vein:
http://www.masscomm.loyno.edu/~dmyer...ent_031508.doc
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:42 PM   #97
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No they don't. And never has an approved education organization ben banned from Second Life because for any reason - especially greifing.
V5

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Old 04-23-2010, 03:52 PM   #98
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No they don't. And never has an approved education organization ben banned from Second Life because for any reason - especially greifing.
Your memory, it is sleepy.

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"unreliable sources". People that have been greifed by members of the WU I would not consider unreliable sources.
You say the weirdest things! Anyone who claims to have been griefed by a member of the WU is automatically a reliable source, through some alchemical magic? I personally know of exactly one person who claims to have been griefed by people belonging to WU, and I know from other experiences that that person is an extremely unreliable source.

I do know, of my own experience, of people being jerks to each other. I don't know how typical that jerkiness is of people belonging to WU or any other particular group, just because I don't have the data.

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And the quotes from the WU representative in the Herald seems pretty reliable also.
Oh, yes! Griefers are extremely reliable source of information about themselves!

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But here are some more rose colored glasses for you so you can remain immune from the facts.
Oooh, your logic has defeated me again!
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:56 PM   #99
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V5

Never Forget.
here ya go, Luc




huh?
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Old 04-23-2010, 03:58 PM   #100
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Dale, you may not think you have an opinion on WU as griefers, but Lias knows that you do, and unfortunately it's hostile to her own.

What's so hard to understand?
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Old 04-23-2010, 04:06 PM   #101
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This is another 'good' one in the same vein:
http://www.masscomm.loyno.edu/~dmyer...ent_031508.doc
Wow, that is amazing and sad! A sociologist goes into the PvP area of an MMO, intentionally follows the official game rules but violates all the implicit social rules, and is ostracized for it. And then, instead of using this as great data about the difference between (say) physical laws and social norms, he gets all whiny and butthurt about how people were mean to him even though he killed 'way more villains than they did!

I think the problem in both of these failed bits of scholarship is that the researchers went native; the first guy started considering himself "one of the gang" wrt the griefers, and the second guy got so immersed in the world that when his character was ostracized, he forgot that that had been the whole idea of the research, and instead got detoured into defending the character's actions and whining about how social norms limit "diversity".

Ppls are so weird.
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Old 04-23-2010, 04:18 PM   #102
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The second one is actually considerably more dysfunctional than the first. The first mainly is just really poorly edited - for example I don't think the author meant that furries were considered homosexuals in general, but that the people she were discussing - SA goons - considered furries to be homosexual (which is true). Her points aren't that out there - she doesn't judge the ethical impact of griefing of course, even when discussing such destructive acts as simcrashing and copybotting - but it's not nearly as "waah lookitme" as the Myers piece.

(I still think that her pieces for the Herald are going to be trainwrecks of bad-actor validation, given Ludlow's history, though.)
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Old 04-23-2010, 04:27 PM   #103
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Yeah, well... I think my main objection to the first one is that the author didn't actually do anything, except sit around reading weblogs and chatting with people, and then writing down apparently sort of the first things that came to mind. This kind of preliminary research was fine in the days when exotic foreign cultures were distant and hard to get to, and coming back from an expedition and just uncritically listing stuff that the people there did and what they thought about was a real service. But SA and PN and w-hat and all are creatures of the web, and anyone interested in this level of unanalyzed primary material can just Google for it. The author's main contribution ("contribution") seems to be linking it to previous work on transgressive behavior in the most obvious, and obviously wrong, sort of way.

At least in the second one the author went and did something. So now others have some data that they didn't have before, that can be analyzed for knowledge by people who aren't busy being upset about people being mean to Twixt on th' forums.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:23 AM   #104
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V5

Never Forget.
Was V5 an "approved education organization" (which is what Lias' claim was about)?
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:30 AM   #105
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I don't think they were. I remember when they attacked my roadside club for 4 hours while Lindens tried to negotiate with them. I went and bought two push orbs. Since I own land on both sides of the street I placed them on ether side, added their names to the devices, un-sat them and watched them bounced for a while until they decided to call it a night. This was early 2006 when LL believed there was good in people.
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Old 04-24-2010, 04:28 AM   #106
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Old 04-24-2010, 08:03 AM   #107
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Was V5 an "approved education organization" (which is what Lias' claim was about)?
They taught me many things :P

No, but Lias was also claiming in that statement there hasn't been blanket griefer bans,
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:42 AM   #108
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No, but Lias was also claiming in that statement there hasn't been blanket griefer bans,
Went back and re-read, and you're right. Lias' claim is actually a two-parter, the first about blanket bans in general, which seems disproven as your V5 example suggests. The second, about the banning of *educational* organisations specifically, I haven't seen refuted yet.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:46 AM   #109
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Went back and re-read, and you're right. Lias' claim is actually a two-parter, the first about blanket bans in general, which seems disproven as your V5 example suggests. The second, about the banning of *educational* organisations specifically, I haven't seen refuted yet.
Well Woodbury did have their sims taken off of them a couple of years ago, and tizzers and others were banned, only to come back later..

So, an educational group has been hammered before...

Woodbury in fact.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:51 AM   #110
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[...] Oh, and Intlibber is is possibly the stupidest person on earth if he really thinks that internet banning is a human rights violation.
Although there's plenty of corroborating evidence that Intlibber is in fact the stupidest person on earth, there is currently this bit of rival idiocy from http://woodbury.su/:
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Originally Posted by Meif Ling
In the event that we want to submit a case to the ACLU, we are going to need an official list of who is banned.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:57 AM   #111
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Well Woodbury did have their sims taken off of them a couple of years ago, and tizzers and others were banned, only to come back later..

So, an educational group has been hammered before...

Woodbury in fact.
True, true.

I think I'll stop while I'm behind.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:50 PM   #112
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Is the real story behind this all about tier fees?

Is this just a group of kids getting together and buying a sim and trying to get the reduced educational pricing they aren't actually eligible for?

Otherwise it sure sounds pointless.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:56 PM   #113
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IntLibber needs to just shut up and go farrrrrr away.
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Old 04-24-2010, 05:15 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Cale Vinson View Post
Went back and re-read, and you're right. Lias' claim is actually a two-parter, the first about blanket bans in general, which seems disproven as your V5 example suggests. The second, about the banning of *educational* organisations specifically, I haven't seen refuted yet.
Congrats, Cale! Your 15 minutes have arrived, and await you, piping hot and ready to enjoy . . .

http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/se...en-rabbit.html

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There's another person on SL Citizen named Cale who also criticizes the Woodburies and other w-hoods appropriately and rationally, something the other tribal members aren't sure they're allowed to do, especially with the bullying BDSM child Imnotgoinganywhere in their midst. Cale of course assures everyone that while not a technocommunist she's a third-way socialist -- to summarize a lot of dialogue with helpful labels : )

Her third-way socialism includes bashing the pompous land baron crazy cat lady Prokofy blah blah -- which of course, is a view she's shaped from...reading the outrageous w-hood caricatures on her "citizens' forum, and not from actually coming to meetings or reading texts - but I don't worry about that. I don't cry "don't you know who I ammmmm" in impotent real-life rage to people who all me names, the SL trope. If they don't get it, they don't get it, it's pitched over their head.
Hmmmm . . . "Cale of course assures everyone that while not a technocommunist she's a third-way socialist . . ."

I knew I liked you . . .
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Old 04-24-2010, 05:22 PM   #115
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LOL

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The butt-hurt emo tone of the Woodburies in this thread is costing them gullible support they'd might ordinarily expect, and even Lucifer calls them on their bullshit and says "come on guys, you really thought getting a RL university to cover for 4chan was going to last long when you act like that?!"
Even evil old me, LOL
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Old 04-24-2010, 05:28 PM   #116
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(=_=)
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Old 04-24-2010, 05:35 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Lucifer Baphomet View Post
LOL



Even evil old me, LOL
Not fair. Only one "15 minutes" per person! And you've had yours already.

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Old 04-24-2010, 05:38 PM   #118
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Her third-way socialism includes bashing the pompous land baron crazy cat lady Prokofy blah blah -- which of course, is a view she's shaped from...reading the outrageous w-hood caricatures on her "citizens' forum, and not from actually coming to meetings or reading texts...
Don't worry about having your intelligence insulted this way, Cale. It's perfectly possible for someone to be anti-WU without liking Prok. I am; and while it could be said that I never attended his meetings, I've certainly read Prok's blogs. I get the distinct impression from his own words that, because I have a kid av, he would likely eject me without any consideration as to my stance on things like WU - and even if he wouldn't, Prok pre-empted any notion I would've had to visit by thoughtlessly insulting me and all others who may use kid avs, sight-unseen. Prok is not a voice of reason. He has just as much trouble seeing the forest as his supporters attribute to others; there's just different trees blocking his view.
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Old 04-24-2010, 05:41 PM   #119
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Cale of course assures everyone that while not a technocommunist she's a third-way socialist -- to summarize a lot of dialogue with helpful labels : )
Is technocommunist anything like techno viking? Because that would be awesome...

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Old 04-24-2010, 05:48 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Dakota Tebaldi View Post
Don't worry about having your intelligence insulted this way, Cale. It's perfectly possible for someone to be anti-WU without liking Prok. I am; and while it could be said that I never attended his meetings, I've certainly read Prok's blogs. I get the distinct impression from his own words that, because I have a kid av, he would likely eject me without any consideration as to my stance on things like WU - and even if he wouldn't, Prok pre-empted any notion I would've had to visit by thoughtlessly insulting me and all others who may use kid avs, sight-unseen. Prok is not a voice of reason. He has just as much trouble seeing the forest as his supporters attribute to others; there's just different trees blocking his view.
Don't worry indeed. In some circles, getting trashed there is a badge of honour, and your pass card into the very finest clubs and restaurants.

This is the problem. There are actually a fair number of things Prok says with which I, to some degree or another, agree. WU, is, I think, substantially one of them. I actually completely respect her views on misogyny in SL.

But there's not a lot of leeway with Prok for "polite disagreement" or half-hearted endorsement. It tends to be all or nothing.
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