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Old 01-03-2015, 12:36 AM   #81
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I've always struggled with it due to a strict religious upbringing,
I think this is really the crux of these matters for a lot of people.
Reconciling a religious upbringing with personal beliefs... and science.

Like me... I was raised by a Christian mother and went to church until I was off on my own.
As a teenager, I went to church voluntarily... going at least 3 or 4 nights a week, plus Sunday morning.
I had a major physical back issue healed through prayer.
I made friends and learned morality.

There are many positive outcomes from having that upbringing.
Which is why it's so hard to come to grips with believing ANYthing that opposes those beliefs.

That being said... it was my religious upbringing that lead me into siding more with Republicans for a long time.
Then I started paying attention... realizing that Democrats, by actions, were far more Christian than their religious Republican counterparts.

I did things during those years that I'm ashamed of (like the very anti-homosexual lyrics I wrote once), but have since come to grips with and can at least be happy that I'm in a better place as a human these days.

All in all, I don't think I had a horrible youth due to religion.
Sure, it fucked some shit up, but it also made some things better and... I think... helped encourage and develop some positive aspects of myself that may heave not been as developed otherwise.
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Old 01-17-2015, 03:08 PM   #82
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Slightly off topic....do we think people should get prior approval for this sort of comment theft?
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Old 01-23-2015, 10:01 PM   #83
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Old 01-23-2015, 10:28 PM   #84
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:11 AM   #85
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Oh man.... those love letters to Richard Dawkins were hilarious!
What a display of stupidity, ignorance and bigotry!

But, "realistic Jesus" should probably look like culturally correct Jesus, since he was most likely a real person... and most likely not a zombie alien.
Well, maybe he was an alien... reading the Bible while thinking of the Trinity as aliens makes a lot more sense.

But anyway... that video was awesome.
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Old 04-04-2015, 06:24 PM   #86
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Old 04-04-2015, 11:55 PM   #87
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- "I KNOW my religion is right."

-- "How?"

- "Because my religious texts say so!"

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Old 04-18-2015, 05:54 PM   #88
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:32 AM   #89
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Sounds like some really fuckin good acid.
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Old 04-23-2015, 11:20 AM   #90
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Or, he saw God.

Remember, God doesn't have to be this anthropomorphized thing. Or even a singular thing.
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Old 04-23-2015, 02:39 PM   #91
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Or Tom cruise was standing nearby,
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Old 04-23-2015, 04:25 PM   #92
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Maybe God and Tom Cruise were doing acid... and they saw that guy.
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Old 04-23-2015, 09:28 PM   #93
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Or, he saw God.

Remember, God doesn't have to be this anthropomorphized thing. Or even a singular thing.
Or even exist.
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Old 04-23-2015, 09:59 PM   #94
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Or even exist.
To be fair, that can't be proven absolutely.

Of course, it's also fair to say that what most people think of as God (the creator) could very well have been aliens.
And God, the overseer and healer, could be a placebo pill that results in the combined power of human energy being responsible for supernatural healing.

It just can't be absolutely defined as one thing or another.
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Old 04-24-2015, 02:37 PM   #95
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To be fair, that can't be proven absolutely.
That's like saying that it can't be proven absolutely that Santa doesn't exists.

Are you saying that you honestly believe that Santa might exist?
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Old 04-24-2015, 06:19 PM   #96
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It is a fallacy, and I believe a common one throughout history, to believe we know all about the universe and how it works.
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Old 04-24-2015, 08:09 PM   #97
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It is a fallacy, and I believe a common one throughout history, to believe we know all about the universe and how it works.
I'm pretty sure nobody here said we did.
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Old 04-24-2015, 10:40 PM   #98
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That's like saying that it can't be proven absolutely that Santa doesn't exists.

Are you saying that you honestly believe that Santa might exist?
No, it's not like saying Santa exists.
(Although, he is based on a real person.)

But that's two entirely different things.
The main functions of Santa are giving gifts and bringing holiday cheer.
The main functions of God are the creation of the entire universe and the provider of Heaven (and Hell).

People generally don't believe Santa can heal them or save their soul or be able to claim ownership of everything in existence.

There are personal experiences which bring into question whether there is a supernatural power.
Like when a pastor and congregation prayed over me and I watched my leg grow to match the length of my other leg.
That shit happened... whether it was God or the power of collective human will, I saw (and felt) it happen.

All I'm saying is that none of us can conclusively say there is no higher power, specifically in the face of experiences which disallow the outright dismissal of that theory.
For instance, not only did I once watch my leg grow during a healing prayer, but I also saw angels (and not-so-angels) when I was a child.
(I vaguely remember what they looked like.)


So claiming it's the same as trying to prove Santa doesn't exist is a weak argument.


(I should also mention that I don't believe any religion has it right. They're all based on the same ancient knowledge/history/legends, yet claim only their version is the true one. It's ignorant and prideful of each of them.)
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Old 04-25-2015, 11:39 AM   #99
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It's also a fallacy to believe that what one senses with their five senses is all there is to be sensed.

And by extension, a fallacy to think that what one senses along with whatever information beyond our limits that present-day technology adds is all there is or can be.

Perhaps even more important is how it all works. Because the known equations are not all the equations there are to be known.
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Old 04-27-2015, 04:22 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Cocoanut Koala View Post
It's also a fallacy to believe that what one senses with their five senses is all there is to be sensed.

And by extension, a fallacy to think that what one senses along with whatever information beyond our limits that present-day technology adds is all there is or can be.

Perhaps even more important is how it all works. Because the known equations are not all the equations there are to be known.
The fallacy is to assume that because we might not be able to sense with our our five sense all there is that it automatically means "God".
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Old 04-27-2015, 04:24 PM   #101
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No, it's not like saying Santa exists.
(Although, he is based on a real person.)

But that's two entirely different things.
The main functions of Santa are giving gifts and bringing holiday cheer.
The main functions of God are the creation of the entire universe and the provider of Heaven (and Hell).

People generally don't believe Santa can heal them or save their soul or be able to claim ownership of everything in existence.

There are personal experiences which bring into question whether there is a supernatural power.
Like when a pastor and congregation prayed over me and I watched my leg grow to match the length of my other leg.
That shit happened... whether it was God or the power of collective human will, I saw (and felt) it happen.

All I'm saying is that none of us can conclusively say there is no higher power, specifically in the face of experiences which disallow the outright dismissal of that theory.
For instance, not only did I once watch my leg grow during a healing prayer, but I also saw angels (and not-so-angels) when I was a child.
(I vaguely remember what they looked like.)


So claiming it's the same as trying to prove Santa doesn't exist is a weak argument.


(I should also mention that I don't believe any religion has it right. They're all based on the same ancient knowledge/history/legends, yet claim only their version is the true one. It's ignorant and prideful of each of them.)

It's not. The reason we don't believe in Santa is because there is plenty of evidence which shows that he's imaginary, that someone made him up for a specific purpose.

There is also plenty of evidence which shows that gods are imaginary, that someone made them up for specific purposes.

After all, nobody believes Thor is real anymore.
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Old 04-27-2015, 09:56 PM   #102
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The thing is, we do have experiences which can't be explained by known history or science.
These things (prayer healing, ghosts, angles, etc.) aren't stories made up by ancestors, they're things people actively experience today.

With Santa, we all know it was made up because we have the history of it being made up.
Parents don't believe in Santa because they know they're the ones buying and wrapping gifts and it's not elves and Santa.


Now, I'm not saying any particular version of God is the real one or that God is even the type of being that most people believe "he" is.
I'm just saying that we can't scientifically dismiss the idea of an intelligent energy/being(s) because much of nature has been explained.

But I agree that the version of God/gods that any religion portraya, were defined by humans to fit their personal wants/beliefs.
None of them know the true face any god.
Heck, none of them even follow anywhere close to all the rules in their own religious texts.
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Old 04-28-2015, 11:48 AM   #103
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The thing is, we do have experiences which can't be explained by known history or science.
These things (prayer healing, ghosts, angles, etc.) aren't stories made up by ancestors, they're things people actively experience today.
The study of human psychology and the physiology of the brain explains these things quite well.

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With Santa, we all know it was made up because we have the history of it being made up.
Parents don't believe in Santa because they know they're the ones buying and wrapping gifts and it's not elves and Santa.
But we have plenty of history showing that gods are made up. You believe that Thor and Zeus are made up, don't you? How about Ishtar?

So what reason do we have to believe that the god of a tribe of bronze age goat herders isn't made up? Seriously - why is this one particular god out of the thousands in human history the One True God?


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Now, I'm not saying any particular version of God is the real one or that God is even the type of being that most people believe "he" is.
I'm just saying that we can't scientifically dismiss the idea of an intelligent energy/being(s) because much of nature has been explained.
Of course we can. In exactly the same way that we scientifically dismiss the idea of the Easter Bunny, or Zeus, or Santa.

There is no logical reason to believe in gods.


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But I agree that the version of God/gods that any religion portraya, were defined by humans to fit their personal wants/beliefs.
None of them know the true face any god.
Heck, none of them even follow anywhere close to all the rules in their own religious texts.
If there were gods, why would they put up with this? Wouldn't they come down and make their displeasure known?
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Old 04-28-2015, 06:22 PM   #104
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The study of human psychology and the physiology of the brain explains these things quite well.
It explains some of them.
But video evidence of ghostly beings can't be explained by an individuals perception.
And the angels I saw as a child weren't figments like imaginary friends, they were actual beings that I could see.
The oddest part to me was that they were all one color... one was all blue, another pink, another was purple (he was the bad one who told me not to pray).

So, yes, there are times when psychology and brain stuff is responsible, sometimes though it's not a figment of the imagination.


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But we have plenty of history showing that gods are made up. You believe that Thor and Zeus are made up, don't you? How about Ishtar?

So what reason do we have to believe that the god of a tribe of bronze age goat herders isn't made up? Seriously - why is this one particular god out of the thousands in human history the One True God?
I already said I don't think any religion has it right, so to me... nobody can lay claim to "the one true God".
And Thor was a different type of god... he was the type of god that's used to explain phenomena that humans didn't understand scientifically... like lightning or an eclipsing moon or changing seasons.

But there is evidence that Jesus was a real person, son of God or not.
That's different than Thor who has no real person associated with him (As far as I know).
If Jesus performed miracles, or things which appeared miraculous, it wouldn't be a far stretch for the people of the day to believe he was the son of God.


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Of course we can. In exactly the same way that we scientifically dismiss the idea of the Easter Bunny, or Zeus, or Santa.

There is no logical reason to believe in gods.
Your replying to a statement I was making about not being able to make an absolute statement that there is no higher power.
I know it's almost a strawman or red herring or whatever, but it's still true... while we can disprove the existence of the Easter Bunny or Santa, we can't disprove a higher power as easily.


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If there were gods, why would they put up with this? Wouldn't they come down and make their displeasure known?
That depends on the god.
Maybe they aren't displeased and just get a kick out of watching humanity scramble about.
Or maybe it's more like the founding fathers (USA) believed, that a Creator exists and had created the Earth, but didn't stick around to watch over everything in minute detail and instead went off to do whatever else... maybe he had to catch up on X-Files or something.


On a side note, I think the Bible matches up quite well with visits from aliens... so there's always that.
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Old 04-28-2015, 08:43 PM   #105
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Old 04-29-2015, 02:47 PM   #106
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Well, haven't seen you in like forever, Govi!
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Old 04-29-2015, 02:49 PM   #107
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I think you have sort of a primitive idea of God, redhead.
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Old 04-29-2015, 06:45 PM   #108
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How so, Coco?
What's so primitive about her understanding of God?

That's the kind of statement that would do well to have some sort of explanation along with it.
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Old 04-29-2015, 07:27 PM   #109
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How so, Coco?
What's so primitive about her understanding of God?

That's the kind of statement that would do well to have some sort of explanation along with it.
What she means is "not the same as hers"
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Old 04-29-2015, 08:08 PM   #110
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Definitely not the same as mine. Try thinking of God in terms of energy, for instance, rather than God having to be this or that characature; i.e. primitive anthropormorphizing.
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Old 11-24-2015, 11:25 PM   #111
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What he said.


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Old 11-25-2015, 12:45 AM   #112
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He certainly has a lot of great points!
Some of them are a bit absolutist and slightly off-kilter (i.e., "religion teaches absolutely nothing that's true"... there are some true and valuable teachings in religion), but his answers are really informative for those who are wondering about either, or both, sides.

To be fair, I only made it about 5 minutes in before I had to turn my music back on.
But if I remember to come back when I'm not drinking, I may listen to more.

Either way, thanks for posting that!
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