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CDS details, directly from the source
Old 05-05-2010, 05:35 AM   #1
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Default CDS details, directly from the source

(x-posting from SLU as not everyone reads there but I consider it important)
There was some interesting new information coming up from CDS developer Ash Qin who was recently part of an interview with Treet.tv. You can see the full 1h show here Client Detection System | Treet TV and I suggest you do so to get the complete picture.

I took a number of in my opinion interesting comments out which I believe are supporting that CDS is in clear and multiple violation of ToS 8.3 (i) and (iv) (see the end of this posting). But please make up your own opinion. This is just food for thought

----------

Ash Qin
"[The CDS] device sits in the region [...] and detects viewers used [...] performing active scans [...] and passive scans [...] collecting data."
"[CDS] adds viewer to internal list [...] and informs nodes automatically about the user."
"[The] system automatically bans." "Banned users are put on global list [forever]".

"As far as we are aware we are completely compliant with the Terms of Service" [questionable stand alone statement]
"[CDS] has the potential to collect IP addresses but we don't store this information as it is quite useless"

"There is a weakness [...] so many could legitimately use a viewer and ehh, no I'm not mentioning this in case people google it" "Conflicts of interest collide here"
"Some people make it a personal vendetta to find every CDS unit they can"

~19:00 insecure comments without saying anything real but unfounded general accusations, besides he forgets the questions all the time

"We never said it is a 100% system"
"There is an appeals procedure [...] I have not seen any legitimate complains"
"If it [matches] 95% we don't ban the person"

"There is a lot of information [...] we keep to determine in the future [...] if the person is or was using a bad viewer"
"It is an automated system. [We handle appeals only based on the determination if] this person was illegitimately flagged by the system or not"

"A council to deal with these appeals [would be better] however the problem with this is that ToS makes that difficult"
"We also have to keep information about our detection methods private [to evaluate] if this was a false positive on the technical side"

"We did think about releasing this as a free product [...] but it is like a full time paid job [...] and it's not exactly that we earn a minimum wage on this system"

"We can not accept certain appeals because we have to be strict on certain policies" [?!]

Arabella Steadham
"When something is free, people have a lot less regard, a lot less respect for it. The charge CDS has is so minimum"
"To make it a free product [...] people would think it is garbage because it is free"

Ash Quin
~45:30 "We don't have a public [accessible] database [...] You'd need a third party source [to find out about CDS details]"
"There is different kind of information based on statistical analysis to determine an alt [...] it is not accurate science"
"It is possible to detect Alts but it is not accurate so we don't use it."
"We don't ban [...] Alts." "We can't give an accurate detection system"
"It is a gray area and we can't get an answer from Linden Lab"

----------

I leave all these points standing as themselves on their own for the interested reader. Please watch the video and draw your own conclusions and make your own judgement.

Just one comment for Arabella. I made free viewers for 2 1/2 years and I certainly hope the people who downloaded and use them did not consider them garbage, just because I did all that for free without getting paid even a minimum minimal wage for thousands of hours work. But hey, after all that also renders Emerald complete garbage . Even though it is listed in that oh so famous Viewer Directory to give you your false sense of security.


Just to be complete here are the violated ToS terms again in case you want to file an AR against self appointed grid cops which you should:

8.3
(i) Post or transmit viruses, Trojan horses, worms, spyware, time bombs, cancelbots, or other computer programming routines that may harm the Service or interests or rights of other users, or that may harvest or collect any data or personal information about other users without their consent;

(iv) Engage in malicious or disruptive conduct that impedes or interferes with other users' normal use of the Service;


This also applies to the new zF Redzone system that "copybotted" CDS.
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Old 05-05-2010, 06:59 AM   #2
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They couldn't make money off panic if it was free.
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Old 05-05-2010, 07:20 AM   #3
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so its not good if viewers collect data but its fine if they do it?
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Old 05-05-2010, 09:43 AM   #4
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If the CDS is in violation of the ToS, then so is the JLU Brainiac database, visitor counter systems, the old anti-copybot "!quit" spammers and a whole host of other things (including the Bloodlines "RP" system).
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Old 05-05-2010, 12:46 PM   #5
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It does not matter. CDS will do the dirty work of the Lindens.
Never mind the fact, we are expected to put our faith into the hopes the creator knows how to write code.

If the creator is going to maintain a black list of users. I think it would be fair that we know who uses this system.

It's stuff like this. that any sympathy I have content creators starts to wane.
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Old 05-05-2010, 01:48 PM   #6
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I don't think that a parcel or estate owner banning someone from their parcel or estate, or using a scripted object to do so, counts as "malicious or disruptive conduct that impedes or interferes with other users' normal use of the Service".

Otherwise every instance of banning would be a ToS violation!

If you're saying that using a scripted object to do it makes it a ToS violation, you'd have to point me at the words in the ToS that forbid doing so.

People who use CDS are delegating the decision about who to ban from their land to someone else, via a mess of program code. That might be unwise, certainly, but I don't see anything against it in the ToS.

The "gathering information" thing seems like a grayer area. Not sure just where the line should be drawn between visitor logs and things like CDS, especially given that CDS isn't actually revealing what data they gather...
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:25 PM   #7
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It is a distributed system, as such it
1) harvests data without user consent
2) disrupts the service

Which is in clear ToS violation.

In addition to that CDS falls under TPV which requires a privacy policy about what data is collected, stored and processed.

So we have here at least 3 in my opinion clear violations. In the end only LL can answer that, that's why I suggest to file an AR against CDS and Skills Hak (which is a permanently banned griefer/copybotter that created a new account to circumvent the ban, violation no. 4).
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Old 05-05-2010, 10:38 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Lane View Post
It is a distributed system, as such it
1) harvests data without user consent
2) disrupts the service

Which is in clear ToS violation.
Well, again, it doesn't "disrupt the service" any more than a club owner does when he bans someone from the club. And no one's suggested that that's a ToS violation.

It does harvest data without user consent, but so do visitor counters that log AV names; those are probably also not ToS violations (at least precedent suggests that they are not). Without knowing just what data it obtains and saves, it's hard to judge whether or not it's significantly different from those things that there is precedent for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Lane View Post
In addition to that CDS falls under TPV which requires a privacy policy about what data is collected, stored and processed.
Presumably it would only fall under TPV if it was a viewer; is it a viewer? I didn't think it was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Lane View Post
So we have here at least 3 in my opinion clear violations. In the end only LL can answer that, that's why I suggest to file an AR against CDS and Skills Hak (which is a permanently banned griefer/copybotter that created a new account to circumvent the ban, violation no. 4).
'twould be nice if there were some way to ask the Lindens questions like this without having to AR someone...

(Note that I'm not chiming in here because I'm a great admirer of CDS or anything; I just don't think that it's a ToS violation for the reasons that you suggest.)
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:24 PM   #9
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These questions were all answered with BanLink.

BL, you need to stop getting caught up in this nonsense and keeping coding. Your stuff is too good to let others get in the way. I'll bet a majority of these arguments are brought up by people that wish they could program and can't so they try insert themselves in the periphery by coming up with these arguments.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:32 PM   #10
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I know nothing about CDS, but it seems to me if I were a copy-viewer coder I'd build something like this and distribute it to pacify the marks.
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:09 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Osprey Therian View Post
I know nothing about CDS, but it seems to me if I were a copy-viewer coder I'd build something like this and distribute it to pacify the marks.
People reportedly doing this already, that is a original LL viewer with some "added funky features". Undetectable.

I'm not making such a thing for the simple reason it would do more harm than anything good.
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Old 05-06-2010, 12:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale Innis View Post
Well, again, it doesn't "disrupt the service" any more than a club owner does when he bans someone from the club. And no one's suggested that that's a ToS violation.

It does harvest data without user consent, but so do visitor counters that log AV names; those are probably also not ToS violations (at least precedent suggests that they are not). Without knowing just what data it obtains and saves, it's hard to judge whether or not it's significantly different from those things that there is precedent for.



Presumably it would only fall under TPV if it was a viewer; is it a viewer? I didn't think it was.



'twould be nice if there were some way to ask the Lindens questions like this without having to AR someone...

(Note that I'm not chiming in here because I'm a great admirer of CDS or anything; I just don't think that it's a ToS violation for the reasons that you suggest.)
Well, you have your point of view, I have mine. Nothing wrong with it .

Just regarding TPV, probably the term "viewer" in the title is misleading, but the policy itself is clear that it covers any "client" connecting to SL. Which is CDS with an external database. And that makes it subject to the required privacy policy.

"This includes software for viewing Second Life, any chat clients, utilities, bots, and proxies as well as applications that may not be listed in our Viewer Directory."
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Old 05-06-2010, 03:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Lane View Post
People reportedly doing this already, that is a original LL viewer with some "added funky features". Undetectable.

I'm not making such a thing for the simple reason it would do more harm than anything good.

I meant build a purportedly bad-viewer ID system and have the bad viewers of my choice run under the radar by design.
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Old 05-06-2010, 03:40 AM   #14
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I meant build a purportedly bad-viewer ID system and have the bad viewers of my choice run under the radar by design.
There is actually no "ID system" for viewers. They can merely be identified by the channel they use, or in case of Emerald and the malicious ones based on Emerald by a specific texture fingerprint of their clothing layer protection.

As the wannabie copybot viewer devs are so full of themselves they made their garbage unique so they could be seen by the rest of Emerald & Co with a different viewer tag. Pretty lame, and they can therefore easily be banned. At least that was the case for the existing viewers.

If I were making fancy copybot things I would just stick to the official code, even Neil got that hint in the end. And make undetectable viewers. Which then renders CDS and xF Something a complete waste of money.
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Old 05-06-2010, 03:51 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boy Lane View Post
There is actually no "ID system" for viewers. They can merely be identified by the channel they use, or in case of Emerald and the malicious ones based on Emerald by a specific texture fingerprint of their clothing layer protection.

As the wannabie copybot viewer devs are so full of themselves they made their garbage unique so they could be seen by the rest of Emerald & Co with a different viewer tag. Pretty lame, and they can therefore easily be banned. At least that was the case for the existing viewers.

If I were making fancy copybot things I would just stick to the official code, even Neil got that hint in the end. And make undetectable viewers. Which then renders CDS and xF Something a complete waste of money.
It's easy enough to take the I'M CRYOLIFE booby-traps out of Cryolife with a hex editor and some tweaking of XML files . . .
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Old 05-06-2010, 05:28 AM   #16
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It's easy enough to take the I'M CRYOLIFE booby-traps out of Cryolife with a hex editor and some tweaking of XML files . . .
But what's the point?

If I want to make a copybot viewer I'd just do so. If I want to share the copybot viewer with the crowd I'd do so. If I want to make it undetectable I'd do so. Hell, everybody can make this, even the wannabe Neil who somewhat became famous.

It's where your responsibility kicks in. If you think it's fun and you do it for the LULZ, go for it. Most key Modularsystems devs did so, they got permanently banned. They created new accounts. And they are back, for the LULZ. Or wait, now we are at stage two. Now they do it for money. To sell CDS and to soon sell that new "commercial" Onyx system.

For me it just stinks. But I stick to my responsibility, and integrity.
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Old 05-06-2010, 05:41 AM   #17
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But what's the point?

It's where your responsibility kicks in. If you think it's fun and you do it for the LULZ, go for it.
Just did it out of curiosity. Mostly to separate fact from fiction with all the FUD concerning what the viewers were actually capable of.
They're pretty scary. And verify my opinion that CDS is a snake-oil fix. Only the clueless copybotters will get caught.

Plus, I was going to customize a skin for a friend's furry AV.

Turns out it was just a flat color anyways, so I modded one of Eloh's templates instead.
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Old 05-06-2010, 06:39 AM   #18
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Just did it out of curiosity. Mostly to separate fact from fiction with all the FUD concerning what the viewers were actually capable of.
They're pretty scary.
Don't even try, it's not worth it. You get caught by one of the "catch the silly" systems like CDS and may run into bans later on and forever.

I can tell you as a viewer developer it is pretty simple and straight forward to rip all and everything from SL if you want to. I can also tell you that I'm not doing this by myself. There is no magic behind the Neils of this world.

But that makes it so much more wrong. The guys behind Modularsystems made content ripping viewers mainstream in the first place. Now they sell you CDS to "protect" you from what they created in the first place. And this is to be followed up by the new "commercial" Onyx system that pays hard cash into the pockets of Modularsystems.

Wondering what all that roaming Onyx bots do nowadays? They come to your store, rip your content and store it into Modularsystems database. With the excuse to be able to detect copybotters later. You figure.
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Old 05-06-2010, 08:03 AM   #19
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It would seem to me that a go getting coder could make CDS detector so we know what stores are using it. I don't care if they use it but I should have the right to know and tell the store owner where to stick it. Then we can start a global avoidance list of content creators.

I don't trust it and never will.
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Old 05-06-2010, 09:21 AM   #20
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Don't even try, it's not worth it. You get caught by one of the "catch the silly" systems like CDS and may run into bans later on and forever.
Yay for disposable alts and randomly generated mac addresses!
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Old 05-06-2010, 10:57 PM   #21
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It would seem to me that a go getting coder could make CDS detector so we know what stores are using it. I don't care if they use it but I should have the right to know and tell the store owner where to stick it. Then we can start a global avoidance list of content creators.

I don't trust it and never will.
You can spot them by looking for the giant megaprim covering the place.

CDS is already obsolete as it can only detect old malicious viewers based on Emerald code. So no point in wasting time with it.
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