Arizona bill tells police to check immigration status

[Lain (is Bams)]

And God (or whatever Deity or not you believe in, the ghost of Casper or whatever) said let their be dramaz.....

Arizona bill tells police to check immigration status (http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/19/arizona.immigration.bill/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn)

The Arizona state Senate on Monday passed an extensive immigration bill that is widely considered to be some of the toughest immigration legislation in the nation, requiring police officers to determine whether a person is in the United States legally.

Currently, officers can only take that route if a person is suspected in another crime. Critics, including immigrant advocates and the ACLU of Arizona, are concerned the new law will foster racial profiling, arguing that most police officers don't have enough training to look past race while investigating a person's legal status.

:thinking:

On one hand I guess this creates a problem for people who are legally US citizen's being put off by the extra checks.

On the other hand, if you don't belong in the country legally, then I think you should go home and get in line like everyone else has to.

I'm a born US citizen and I have to carry identification documents to prove I am who I say I am. What's the big fucking deal? I see no problem with this because it's not hurting anyone who is legally here.

:bams:

[Don Mill]

The only inconvenience I would see, from the point of view of a legal immigrant, is that my visa was stamped in my passport and the temporary social security card given stated, clearly, that I needed to accompany it with the passport to be legal.

Carrying a passport every day it is risky, considering the fact that is the only document accepted and that getting a new one (in the case you lose it or it is stolen) it is a pain in the butt.

Besides that, all good... give the cops some more shit to do :p

:hug:

PS. For the record, Arizona is quickly becoming one state I am not interested in visiting, at all.

PS2. What would happen with tourist that are in the US w/o a visa requirement? How should they prove that they are not in the country illegally? That one is a tricky one.

[Monna]

I melt in high temperatures never had a interest in a desert land. Come to speak of it KS/MO area is too damn hot also.

[prinţesă nina]

well the cops have now basically ensured that immigrants (legal or not) will likely have nothing to do with them. good luck fighting crime and solving mysteries when a large portion of the population wont want to get involved with you.

[Redhead]

I'm a born US citizen and I have to carry identification documents to prove I am who I say I am. What's the big fucking deal? I see no problem with this because it's not hurting anyone who is legally here.

:bams:

No you don't. There is no law that says you have to present id at any time. The only thing you are required to do is tell the officer your name and address, but you DON'T have to produce any kind of proof.

[Redhead]

Will the cops be trying to verify if everyone who is tall, has blond hair and blue eyes isn't an illegal immigrant from Norway?

[prinţesă nina]

the whole culture of 'your papers please' is something straight out of the cold war.

[Jorus]

the whole culture of 'your papers please' is something straight out of the cold war.

made famous by der Nazi's actually. Godwin'd in a single page.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Jen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scIj3WSOhho

[Lum]

http://www.anunews.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/aa-police-state-your-papers-please-excellent-one.jpg
It's all right, the right wing defenders of your freedom are ON IT.

(...oh wait, they are OK with it if you're exotic and dusky.)

[Merovigan]

The medium defines the message. On tv it's all visual and emotional, on the web it's JUST emotional.

Who needs reason, logic or facts when we can get lols off of nazi comparisons?!

cue char with an image of something funny...

[GradyE]

Papers are so last century.

http://www.i-9help.com/graphics/ElectronicTattoo.jpg

[Jorus]

Papers are so last century.



http://www.i-9help.com/graphics/ElectronicTattoo.jpg

To be fair, tattoos to id an underclass are last century as well.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[GradyE]

Good point.

[Merovigan]

:facepalm: again with the nazis

[Jorus]

The medium defines the message. On tv it's all visual and emotional, on the web it's JUST emotional.

Who needs reason, logic or facts when we can get lols off of nazi comparisons?!

cue char with an image of something funny...

The reason we make fun of it is because it is meaningless pandering. You are already required to provide ID's during stops. Adding another layer to it is just TSA level misdirection.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Merovigan]

The reason we make fun of it is because it is meaningless pandering. You are already required to provide ID's during stops. Adding another layer to it is just TSA level misdirection.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Your meaningless pandering == someone else's step in the right direction.

[Jorus]

The reason we make fun of it is because it is meaningless pandering. You are already required to provide ID's during stops. Adding another layer to it



Your meaningless pandering == someone else's step in the right direction.

Not really. It's just a mandated money sink.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[prinţesă nina]

the article doesnt seems to focus much on this being a traffic issue so much as something larger:
'The measure would require immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times. It also requires police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're undocumented and targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them.'
meaning they can demand proof of citizenship anytime, anywhere, for no reason other than an accent or skin colour.

[Redhead]

The reason we make fun of it is because it is meaningless pandering. You are already required to provide ID's during stops. Adding another layer to it is just TSA level misdirection.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

It's not meaningless pandering, this isn't about traffic stops. You are only required to provide a driver's license if you are stopped while operating a vehicle. If you are a passenger or you are just walking down the street there is absolutely no requirement for you to show any kind of ID at all.

In fact, the officer can't even ask.

If there is some probable cause, such as you are walking down the street and you match the general description of someone who just robbed a grocery store three blocks away then the officer can stop you and ask that you identify yourself. Even then you are NOT required to show ID, you simply need to give your name and address. If the officer has reason to believe you are lying then they can hold you until the information is verified.

Again, as a US citizen you are not required, in any way, to carry ID.

[Rose Karuna]

And God (or whatever Deity or not you believe in, the ghost of Casper or whatever) said let their be dramaz.....

Arizona bill tells police to check immigration status (http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/19/arizona.immigration.bill/index.html?eref=igoogle_cnn)



:thinking:

On one hand I guess this creates a problem for people who are legally US citizen's being put off by the extra checks.

On the other hand, if you don't belong in the country legally, then I think you should go home and get in line like everyone else has to.

I'm a born US citizen and I have to carry identification documents to prove I am who I say I am. What's the big fucking deal? I see no problem with this because it's not hurting anyone who is legally here.

:bams:

I don't think that being required to "show your documents" on demand is conducive to a free society, nor do I think that it's going to help the problem of people entering this country illegally one iota.

If they want to eliminate the problem with people entering into the country illegally then they need to 1) give citizens identification that can't be forged (and if it includes biometrics, have the same strong privacy laws as Europe) and 2) fine the shit out of businesses that hire illegals as well as arrest their owners and board members.

That would stop 90% of all illegal immigration to this country.

The [real] problem is that corporations profit tremendously off of illegals, even our government profits off illegals so when so many people in power are profiting off the backs of illegals, you won't get them to legislate against their own pocket books.

[Jorus]

the article doesnt seems to focus much on this being a traffic issue so much as something larger:
'The measure would require immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times. It also requires police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're undocumented and targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them.'
meaning they can demand proof of citizenship anytime, anywhere, for no reason other than an accent or skin colour.

Thanks Nina, I was giving the benefit of the doubt. Nazi underclass allegory back in play :)

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Rose Karuna]

Will the cops be trying to verify if everyone who is tall, has blond hair and blue eyes isn't an illegal immigrant from Norway?

Good question - I know LOTS of Canadians here in the US illegally. There are a lot of Asians and Ukranians and Russians smuggled into the US too.

So that must mean that every citizen walking down the street must "show their papers"?

I sincerely hope not.

[PrettierHateMachine]

I'll honestly be surprised if this stands up to a Constitutional challenge.

[VictoriaK]

No you don't. There is no law that says you have to present id at any time. The only thing you are required to do is tell the officer your name and address, but you DON'T have to produce any kind of proof.


But you know that if they ask your name, they will run it through the computer, and you better hope everything matches to include a physical description, or you just set yourself up for a very long conversation and possibly a ride in the pretty police car.

[Jorus]

No you don't. There is no law that says you have to present id at any time. The only thing you are required to do is tell the officer your name and





But you know that if they ask your name, they will run it through the computer, and you better hope everything matches to include a physical description, or you just set yourself up for a very long conversation and possibly a ride in the pretty police car.

Lot of John Smiths in the world, I'm bound to look like one of em. And for that matter, name isn't definitive, they want socials or drivers license no.s when they run checks for that very reason.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[VictoriaK]

Lot of John Smiths in the world, I'm bound to look like one of em.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


Laughs.....hope ya'll have the same address and date of birth



:)

[Jorus]

Lot of John Smiths in the world, I'm bound to look like one of em.



Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk





Laughs.....hope ya'll have the same address and date of birth







:)

Aaaah crap It ate my post. TL;DR it doesn't work the way you think it does.

A name based search on the mobile DB cops use only lists offenders, for anything more they need an ID number.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Forest]

I melt in high temperatures never had a interest in a desert land. Come to speak of it KS/MO area is too damn hot also.

Same with me on the temperatures Mona but to be fair, there is a lot of really beautiful places in AZ.









Oh, and they don't spit volcanic ash all over Europe either :wink:

[Beebo Brink]

When I lived in New York City, I knew several illegal immigrants from Ireland and England. They NEVER were asked about their legal status, not even in places of employment. And color my cynical, but I'd say that I'm more likely to be stopped in Arizona than they would, even with their foreign accents, because they're white, blond, and middle-class. This is about scapegoating brown-skinned day laborers that pick the fruit we eat and wash the bed linens in our hotels and our dishes in restaurants.

If Arizona does succeed in driving out the illegal immigrants who do their dirty service work without any protection and for shit wages, you're going to hear screams of outrage from people who find a dirty fork on their plate or pay an extra 20% for hotel rooms or can't get anyone to paint their house.

[PrettierHateMachine]

Beebo I am so glad to see you, hotstuff. :smitten:

[Rose Karuna]

When I lived in New York City, I knew several illegal immigrants from Ireland and England. They NEVER were asked about their legal status, not even in places of employment. And color my cynical, but I'd say that I'm more likely to be stopped in Arizona than they would, even with their foreign accents, because they're white, blond, and middle-class. This is about scapegoating brown-skinned day laborers that pick the fruit we eat and wash the bed linens in our hotels and our dishes in restaurants.

If Arizona does succeed in driving out the illegal immigrants who do their dirty service work without any protection and for shit wages, you're going to hear screams of outrage from people who find a dirty fork on their plate or pay an extra 20% for hotel rooms or can't get anyone to paint their house.

Absolutely - and stopping illegal immigration by arresting businesses (and business owners) that employ them will make business improve working conditions and pay better wages. Just because a business treats someone who is in the country illegally like shit does not make it right. In fact, it's even worse because they are not protected by the same laws we are.

edited to say that maybe, collectively, we should be paying more for services that illegals are hired to do.

[Cherish]

I melt in high temperatures never had a interest in a desert land. Come to speak of it KS/MO area is too damn hot also.

I take it you haven't been to Flagstaff yet. You either freeze your ass of there or get blown into the Canyon.

[Beebo Brink]

Absolutely - and stopping illegal immigration by arresting businesses (and business owners) that employ them will make business improve working conditions and pay better wages. Just because a business treats someone who is in the country illegally like shit does not make it right. In fact, it's even worse because they are not protected by the same laws we are.

edited to say that maybe, collectively, we should be paying more for services that illegals are hired to do.
Personally, I think cracking down on businesses who create the demand for illegal labor would show serious intent rather than these race-baiting citzenship checks. That, however, is not likely to happen because business interests have too much poltical leverage to be used as whipping boys.

The harsh truth is that we have created a labor vaccum in this country because across the board we want cheap food and cheap service and we look the other way at how we're getting it. Whether it's child-labor that makes the goods at Walmart or illegal aliens who wash our lunch plates, we all enjoy some measure of convenience and few of us are willing to work at those jobs.

[Jen]

few of us are willing to work at those jobs for not enough to live on.

/fixed

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

What's the big fucking deal? I see no problem with this because it's not hurting anyone who is legally here.
It doesn't even hurt the ones who are illegally here. It just makes it easier (and in some cases possible) for local law enforcement to ask them about their status, take them into custody, and start them on their journey back home.

Since it's tough to get the full story from the MSM, and it's just about as tough to read and understand the bill on the Legislature's website here's a basic breakdown (http://www.russellpearce.com/text/immigration.htm) of what this bill is all about. The most important part of this bill, as I see it, is that it provides State preemption of all the patchwork city and county laws and policies about what law enforcement can and can't ask someone about their immigration status. That puts an end to "sanctuary cities" where the illegals live under an informal don't ask/don't tell policy that might not even be made by an elected official and certainly isn't subject to the will of the people.

The apologists for the illegals have some standard arguments that they always use, and some of the Arizona and national MSM will echo them. At this point, it's easy to spot those arguments and even easier to refute them.

1. It opens the door for racial profiling - This is a lie perpetuated by the same folks who cry "racism" about everything. They say that those who want illegal aliens to leave the country are racist, because most illegal aliens have brown skin. Years ago, if someone called you a racist, you were forced to stop and reevaluate your actions to be sure you weren't. Up until recently, the cries of racism were all about the same issues we already evaluated, so we knew for a fact that we aren't being racist when we only wanted our laws to be enforced. And today, the racism folks have shouted "racist" so loudly and so often that it becomes just background noise and we ignore it completely. As a side note, I think this is a shame, because if there is actual racism in effect, it's much harder to get it noticed. Finally, this bill has a provision that prohibits identification of illegals by race alone.

2. Illegals won't cooperate with police if they fear deportation - This is a bogus argument because it supposes that illegals are running to the police station all the time to report crimes. They don't, because they know very well that abandoning their low profiles makes them subject to deportation, whether they live in a sanctuary city or not. This is also a bogus argument because we are expected to allow law enforcement to look the other way when one law is violated to keep the violator motivated to report other violations. Maybe we should legalize assault, so assailants won't "stay in the shadows," afraid to report other crimes.

3. It takes cops away from catching "real" criminals - Some folks will try to tell you that cops will be immobilized somehow if they ever have to determine someone's immigration status. While it's true that it adds another item to the list of things to check, it's something that needs to be checked, so let's check it. If a cop stops your car, he has to check to see that you have a driver's license, a registration, and proof of insurance. He has to check to see that you don't have alcohol on your breath, that you don't have illegal drugs or dead bodies on the seat in plain view, and that your license tag is current. If he wants to, he can check to see whether you have any warrants out for your arrest. Finding out whether you're in the country legally isn't that much more to do. This bill contains a provision that lets the officer ignore the immigration status if it will hinder an investigation.

4. People who oppose illegal aliens are "anti-immigrant" - This is another way of saying you are racist. It's supposed to make you stop and think "Hey wait a minute, maybe I really DO hate people from Mexico, even if they're here legally." This was a fairly effective ploy up until recently, but it's been used so often that people these days see it the same as a cry of racism. They will say "I'm not anti-immigrant, I'm anti-ILLEGAL immigrant. There's a big difference."

5. This bill targets Mexicans - The argument here, which was actually used on me last week, was that since most illegals are Mexicans, the result of this bill is to make it illegal for Mexicans to be in Arizona. It's like saying that Arizona speeding laws are unfair to Arizonans, because most people ticketed for speeding in Arizona are Arizonans.

6. Illegals do the work that Americans won't do - Another truly BS argument. As Jen said, few Americans will work at jobs that pay slave wages when they can find other things to do. But what happens when unemployment starts to rise, students can't find summer jobs, and people start getting desperate for any kind of employment, only to find that most entry-level jobs are occupied by illegal aliens? The response is that States are going to start making laws similar to Arizona's if they care more about their citizens than they do about political correctness. Also, we may have to pay more for certain goods and services when unscrupulous employers are forced to pay minimum wage to Americans.

The really sad part of this story that I can see happening is that the Feds could shut down the whole thing by refusing to certify law enforcement officers and refusing to accept illegals arrested by local law enforcement. Janet Napolitano has been soft on illegals ever since she was Governor of Arizona. Now that she runs Homeland Security, I expect her to take some kind of action to invalidate this law. This will mean even more dissatisfaction and anger among Americans.

While it's true that Phoenix is hot in summertime, it is only intolerable if you live outdoors. If you live indoors, you will go from your air conditioned apartment/house to your air conditioned car, travel to your air conditioned workplace, maybe stop by at the air conditioned mall on the way home from work, and possibly travel to an air conditioned restaurant for dinner and an air conditioned movie theater afterward. The mild winters more than compensate for the hot summers. It didn't even get down to freezing in Phoenix this winter. I love it here.

[Redhead]

But you know that if they ask your name, they will run it through the computer, and you better hope everything matches to include a physical description, or you just set yourself up for a very long conversation and possibly a ride in the pretty police car.

First, I'm not saying it's ok to give them a false name - that's illegal and you shouldn't do it. Second, they have to have a legitimate reason to ask. They can't (legally) just stop you on the street at random and demand that you identify yourself.

That's what makes this law so odorous, it's basically telling the police that they are required to do things like that. Frankly I imagine most of the cops were groaning about this law. Most cops don't want to waste their time hassling innocent people. Most cops have that whole Paladin self-image going and want to be out there catching bad guys and protecting the good folks. This law is just going to make their job harder and waste a lot of valuable time that could be spent catching real criminals.

[Lain (is Bams)]

No you don't. There is no law that says you have to present id at any time. The only thing you are required to do is tell the officer your name and address, but you DON'T have to produce any kind of proof.

In Oregon, as well as California and Nevada (maybe not everywhere but I know these places at least), you are required by state law to maintain a valid ID or driver's license on you at all times to prove your identity or you can and will be detained in a jailcell until you can provide it.

I know this because it happened to me once in Tahoe. Mother fuckers.

HAPPY 420! :bams:

[Lain (is Bams)]

It's not meaningless pandering, this isn't about traffic stops. You are only required to provide a driver's license if you are stopped while operating a vehicle. If you are a passenger or you are just walking down the street there is absolutely no requirement for you to show any kind of ID at all.



Just to reiterate, this is false. You are required to carry ID at all times, and can be asked for, and required to produce it, in OR/NV and CA. If a law enforcement officer asks for it, you must display it.

[Jen Kawaguichi]

Personally, I think cracking down on businesses who create the demand for illegal labor would show serious intent rather than these race-baiting citizenship checks. That, however, is not likely to happen because business interests have too much political leverage to be used as whipping boys.


In the movie Food, Inc. there is an interesting scene/assertion about a slaughterhouse in, I believe, North Carolina where the ICE supposedly has an agreement with the company to only arrest 12 illegals at a time so as not to disrupt the work force. The company, of course, never gets in trouble.

[Redhead]

Just to reiterate, this is false. You are required to carry ID at all times, and can be asked for, and required to produce it, in OR/NV and CA. If a law enforcement officer asks for it, you must display it.


I don't know where you heard that rumor, but it simply isn't true.

[Lain (is Bams)]

I don't know where you heard that rumor, but it simply isn't true.

I was detained and taken into custody once in Lake Tahoe, California for not having a valid Identification on me and held until my identity could be proven.

Sorry to piss in your cereal. It's a law in CA, NV has one and OR as well. Although it's not widely implemented, it tends to be used in situations when cops want to be assholes, as in my case I was a bit mouthy at the time (surprising right? ).

:bams:

[Cherish]

Bams, I have never heard of that law in Or or Ca. I can't find anything in search to substantiate it either. I have lived in OR pretty much all of my life. All I am able to find is that you must identify yourself if asked. Could you point me towards the statute?

[Redhead]

I was detained and taken into custody once in Lake Tahoe, California for not having a valid Identification on me and held until my identity could be proven.

Sorry to piss in your cereal. It's a law in CA, NV has one and OR as well. Although it's not widely implemented, it tends to be used in situations when cops want to be assholes, as in my case I was a bit mouthy at the time (surprising right? ).

:bams:


What were the circumstances? You can't be legally detained solely based on not having any ID. I suspect there is more to the story than you are sharing.

[Lain (is Bams)]

Bams, I have never heard of that law in Or or Ca. I can't find anything in search to substantiate it either. I have lived in OR pretty much all of my life. All I am able to find is that you must identify yourself if asked. Could you point me towards the statute?

Well I'm not a lawyer, so I wouldn't know where to find the exact law. It was 2ish years ago during a visit to Tahoe, and I was stopped for what amounts to getting into a shouting match with a dumb hooker who needed a beating.

I was asked for my ID, when I didn't have it, I was detained. I gave them my information, I was held for a fw minutes, and then stuck into a police car and taken to the stationhouse to call my parents to bring down my ID, which I had left at home in my notebook case accidentally.

When I inquired respectfully, I was told that in California, it is illegal to wander around without identification, and that I could be held up to three days (72 hours) while they sorted out my ID. When I said I didn't know that I was from Oregon, dood told me it was the same for Oregon and Nevada, so don't go to the casino without my ID.

That's all I know. If that's not the law then those cops have brass balls. No one seemed to have an issue with it, and I was 'handled' by several law enforcement officials.

:shrug:

:bams:

[Cherish]

The only thing that I could find on the subject is from an OR bicycle attorny.. There is a law in NV that requires ID to be carried.. but nothing in OR. No date on the article. Here is the link if you wish to read it: http://www.stc-law.com/refusal_identify.html

It does say a little something about behaving.

[Cherish]

That might have been for loitering. They can stick that on about anyone just hanging around.

[Lain (is Bams)]

The only thing that I could find on the subject is from an OR bicycle attorny.. There is a law in NV that requires ID to be carried.. but nothing in OR. No date on the article. Here is the link if you wish to read it: http://www.stc-law.com/refusal_identify.html

It does say a little something about behaving.

I guess Gomer Pyle could have been wrong about Oregon. I was in California at the time, but a resident of Oregon. So must just be Ca and Nv then? Either way I don't go to California much anymore, and Nevada is useless for me. :bong:

[Lain (is Bams)]

That might have been for loitering. They can stick that on about anyone just hanging around.

Yeah well I have an aversion to cops maybe he sensed that. :)

:bams:

[Dakota Tebaldi]

To be fair, tattoos to id an underclass are last century as well.



You both need to get hip. This century it's all about computer chips! (http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/showthread.php?t=6849)

[Dakota Tebaldi]

But you know that if they ask your name, they will run it through the computer, and you better hope everything matches to include a physical description, or you just set yourself up for a very long conversation and possibly a ride in the pretty police car.

Can we turn on the lights and sirens? Huh? Pleeeeeease?

[PrettierHateMachine]

http://flexyourrights.org/faq/120

[Cherish]

Yeah well I have an aversion to cops maybe he sensed that. :)

:bams:

That is kind of what I figured too. But then you might have just been after his handcuffs too.

[VictoriaK]

That might have been for loitering. They can stick that on about anyone just hanging around.


I would be inclined to believe that 99% of the time, if a cop asks for your ID, they ether have a good reason to do so, or you have given them one by your actions. If you refuse (your right to do so) it's only going to make them suspicious that you are hiding something, and then they will find a reason to detain you till they establish your identity. I know every time I have been asked (told to) it was because of my behavior, with one exception. Loitering, interference with official acts (that's a catch all), they have all sorts of things they can use.

[Surreal]

On one hand I guess this creates a problem for people who are legally US citizen's being put off by the extra checks.

On the other hand, if you don't belong in the country legally, then I think you should go home and get in line like everyone else has to.

I'm a born US citizen and I have to carry identification documents to prove I am who I say I am. What's the big fucking deal? I see no problem with this because it's not hurting anyone who is legally here.

Oh lord... where do I start.

1) As a US citizen, you don't have to produce identification documents without probable cause. If you're driving a car, you do need to provide a driver's license if pulled over, but police do have to have a reason to do so. They can't demand ID from your passenger without reason.

2) Arizona doesn't have the legal authority to deport illegals. All they can do is hand them over to federal jurisdiction. I suppose they could drop them off on the border with California. :biggrin: (Falling back on the radio interview I heard now) So, they're going to ticket and fine them. Umm.... cause if I'm illegal, I'm gonna come pay a fine.

3) Does Arizona have the extra budget to pay for additional jail space/personnel, prosecutors, court time, additional police staffing, training? And lawsuits? Because there are constitutional challenges guaranteed. And the first time a hispanic looking citizen gets their civil rights stomped on, I smell $$$ lawsuit.

4) And since racial profiling is allowed, more crime as the relationship between police and immigrant communities go down the toilet and even citizens are reluctant to deal with the police. Add to that the ones who may have an illegal relative or two being unwilling to come forward as witnesses to crime. And the opportunistic habits of criminals who know vulnerable prey when they see it. Of course that crime will never affect the white people. ummm yeah.

If they really wanted to stop illegal immigration, they would go after employers. But that doesn't play as well in getting the voters excited.

They'd also admit their incredible hypocrisy. When illegals were working in Mariposa County's building boom, they were welcome, cheap labor.

[Rose Karuna]

I would be inclined to believe that 99% of the time, if a cop asks for your ID, they ether have a good reason to do so, or you have given them one by your actions. If you refuse (your right to do so) it's only going to make them suspicious that you are hiding something, and then they will find a reason to detain you till they establish your identity. I know every time I have been asked (told to) it was because of my behavior, with one exception. Loitering, interference with official acts (that's a catch all), they have all sorts of things they can use.

If I'm operating a vehicle, they have a perfect right to request a license.

If I'm walking down the street and am approached by LE, then there is no reason why an officer can't say "A person of your description was seen doing XYZ, may I see your ID" and frankly, I'd find that reasonable and I'd produce some ID.

(After producing my ID, if it went any further, I'd request an attorney).

That said, 99% of the time cops think it's their god given right to demand whatever the hell they want and expect you to produce it on demand with no explaination just because they are "law enforcement".

This attitude really pisses me off at which point I'm likely to challenge their right to do so even at the expense of being hauled into the station.

The only words and first words out of my mouth to a cop ever, are "I want a lawyer".

[Lucifer Baphomet]

I has made a new flag for Arizona

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2714/4538333351_00354aa3e3_o.png

[Merovigan]

fuckin' nazis

[Surreal]

Know your rights for fucks sake!

There are times when you are required to provide identification. When operating a motor vehicle and pulled over for a probably infraction. To buy liquor or tobacco. To fly in a commercial airplane.

There may be a couple of others, but if I were walking down the street, minding my own business and the cops ask me for my ID, I don't have to produce anything.

I did this last year. I was bicycling through my neighborhood around midnight and the cops pulled me over and asked to see my ID. I politely asked him why he was pulling me over and he was so dumbfounded by my question that he mumbled something about a disturbance. I told him I wasn't carrying ID and gave him my name and address. He made me stand around for a few minutes and then told me to take off.

If more people would stay on top of what their rights actually are, we'd have a lot less encroachment by local law enforcement and the like.

That said, I'm always very polite when I deal with the police. You can be polite and stand on your rights, just be sure you know them.

Fifth Amendment - the right to STFU ... love it, live it.

[Surreal]

meaning they can demand proof of citizenship anytime, anywhere, for no reason other than an accent or skin colour.

It won't survive a constitutional challenge.
It's just political penis waving to make the voters feel erect.

[Surreal]

But you know that if they ask your name, they will run it through the computer, and you better hope everything matches to include a physical description, or you just set yourself up for a very long conversation and possibly a ride in the pretty police car.

So what?

A little inconvenience is a small price to pay to preserve this right. I've lived and traveled in places where officials had the right to demand your papers on whim. We don't want to be those places.

Better a little inconvenience every once in awhile now, then a nice shiny police state.

[Surreal]

I was detained and taken into custody once in Lake Tahoe, California for not having a valid Identification on me and held until my identity could be proven.

Sorry to piss in your cereal. It's a law in CA, NV has one and OR as well. Although it's not widely implemented, it tends to be used in situations when cops want to be assholes, as in my case I was a bit mouthy at the time (surprising right? ).

:bams:

Then frankly, you were suckered.... or there is something you're not telling us.

This is a federal right and states gets to override it. The ACLU will be happy to fight these kind of cases on your behalf.

Why do the cops never oppress me dammit! I could use the cash.

[VictoriaK]

It won't survive a constitutional challenge.
It's just political penis waving to make the voters feel erect.


What constitution?


We still have one?

[Rose Karuna]

It won't survive a constitutional challenge.
It's just political penis waving to make the voters feel erect.

You know I agree with this and I would love to know how much federal and state money is wasted on political penis waving. (lurve that term btw "political penis waving" :hahaha:

[Surreal]

Well I'm not a lawyer, so I wouldn't know where to find the exact law. It was 2ish years ago during a visit to Tahoe, and I was stopped for what amounts to getting into a shouting match with a dumb hooker who needed a beating.

I was asked for my ID, when I didn't have it, I was detained. I gave them my information, I was held for a fw minutes, and then stuck into a police car and taken to the stationhouse to call my parents to bring down my ID, which I had left at home in my notebook case accidentally.

When I inquired respectfully, I was told that in California, it is illegal to wander around without identification, and that I could be held up to three days (72 hours) while they sorted out my ID. When I said I didn't know that I was from Oregon, dood told me it was the same for Oregon and Nevada, so don't go to the casino without my ID.

That's all I know. If that's not the law then those cops have brass balls. No one seemed to have an issue with it, and I was 'handled' by several law enforcement officials.

:shrug:

:bams:

My take on it.

You were part of a public disturbance... that's probable cause.... and a dandy excuse.

Were you a minor? Because kids come under different rules?

Lastly, if you were an adult, the cops lied to you. Cops do that.

[Surreal]

What constitution?

We still have one?

I know you meant that sarcastically, but I have to be honest with you. I literally saw red and I think my temperature went up.

Yes we do. And it has held up amazingly well over 200+ years considering how much our social mores and technology has changed. We were fortunate in the timing of our national birth.

We may argue over things like the precise meaning of the 2nd amendment, but over all, we are an amazingly free country... and it's the Constitution and our love for it - across the political spectrum, that has kept us that way.

I've always been a staunch advocate for the Constitution, but living in Philadelphia these past few years has made me even more aware of the amazing foundation this document represents.

I challenge you to read it again (http://www.midnightbeach.com/jon/US-Constitution.htm), in its entirety, if you haven't lately. Pay especial attention to the Amendments we don't usually wave around in political discussions.

My favorite:

Amendment XIX (1920)

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

[Dakota Tebaldi]

That said, 99% of the time cops think it's their god given right to demand whatever the hell they want and expect you to produce it on demand with no explaination just because they are "law enforcement".

This attitude really pisses me off at which point I'm likely to challenge their right to do so even at the expense of being hauled into the station.

The only words and first words out of my mouth to a cop ever, are "I want a lawyer".

Believe it or not, no. 99% of police are perfectly aware that it's not their god-given right to demand anything. It's just that they're also perfectly aware that there's a very good chance that you are NOT perfectly aware of that fact; and if it makes their job easier, they're quite happy to let you continue to remain ignorant about procedural law while you hand over your ID because you think you have to.

But yeah, just because you don't have to show ID doesn't mean you should feel you can give a false name, because that actually is illegal.

[margaret mfume]

Oh lord... where do I start.

1) As a US citizen, you don't have to produce identification documents without probable cause. If you're driving a car, you do need to provide a driver's license if pulled over, but police do have to have a reason to do so. They can't demand ID from your passenger without reason.


This does not hold in Detroit due to the proximity to the border. The Security Act removed probable cause as a condition within a certain radius of the border. I can't recall what that radius is, but it includes the latino section near the bridge where people are indeed stopped and asked to produce papers while walking down the street. I'm not sure if Dearborn's arabic community lies within the range.

[VictoriaK]

I know you meant that sarcastically, but I have to be honest with you. I literally saw red and I think my temperature went up.

Yes we do. And it has held up amazingly well over 200+ years considering how much our social mores and technology has changed. We were fortunate in the timing of our national birth.

We may argue over things like the precise meaning of the 2nd amendment, but over all, we are an amazingly free country... and it's the Constitution and our love for it - across the political spectrum, that has kept us that way.

I've always been a staunch advocate for the Constitution, but living in Philadelphia these past few years has made me even more aware of the amazing foundation this document represents.

I challenge you to read it again (http://www.midnightbeach.com/jon/US-Constitution.htm), in its entirety, if you haven't lately. Pay especial attention to the Amendments we don't usually wave around in political discussions.

My favorite:

I will respectably have to disagree with you. The constitution has been gradually eroded for..well forever. Do times change, and should amendments to it be made....yes.

But this business of simply ignoring it, or twisting the words completely out of context is frankly BS.

[Surreal]

This does not hold in Detroit due to the proximity to the border. The Security Act removed probable cause as a condition within a certain radius of the border. I can't recall what that radius is, but it includes the latino section near the bridge where people are indeed stopped and asked to produce papers while walking down the street. I'm not sure if Dearborn's arabic community lies within the range.

Do you have a citation on that? I know that there's been some nibbling, and being on a boat in the Detroit River was one of the conditions under which you had to be able to prove your identity....

I'd like to investigate further.

[Surreal]

I will respectably have to disagree with you. The constitution has been gradually eroded for..well forever. Do times change, and should amendments to it be made....yes.

But this business of simply ignoring it, or twisting the words completely out of context is frankly BS.

Perhaps you could elaborate on what you're talking about?

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

2) Arizona doesn't have the legal authority to deport illegals.
Correct. The law "Requires a law enforcement agency to obtain judicial authorization before securely transporting an unlawfully present alien to a point of transfer that is outside of Arizona." The law also "Permits a law enforcement agency to transport an alien who the agency has received verification is unlawfully present in the U.S. and who is in the agency’s custody to: a) a federal facility in this state or b) any other point of transfer into federal custody that is outside the jurisdiction of the law enforcement agency."

3) Does Arizona have the extra budget to pay for additional jail space/personnel, prosecutors, court time, additional police staffing, training?
Yes. Arizona doesn't release prisoners due to prison overcrowding because there is no overcrowding. If we need more jails, we build more jails.

And lawsuits? Because there are constitutional challenges guaranteed. And the first time a hispanic looking citizen gets their civil rights stomped on, I smell $$$ lawsuit.
Historically this has not been a problem and I don't anticipate it will become one.

4) And since racial profiling is allowed...
It's not. The law "Prohibits a law enforcement official or agency of the state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of the state (political subdivision) from solely considering race, color or national origin in implementing the requirement for determining and verifying immigration status, except to the extent permitted by the U.S. or Arizona Constitutions."

...more crime as the relationship between police and immigrant communities go down the toilet and even citizens are reluctant to deal with the police. Add to that the ones who may have an illegal relative or two being unwilling to come forward as witnesses to crime.
So basically there will be no change from what we have today. We haven't had a flood of illegals reporting crimes to the police, ever. The potential for having unreported crimes is not a good reason to allow illegal aliens to stay in the US unopposed.

If they really wanted to stop illegal immigration, they would go after employers. But that doesn't play as well in getting the voters excited.
There are several sections in this bill that target employers of illegals, and Arizona has other laws that do too. The previous laws were all ballot measures that passed overwhelmingly. Arizona voters do get excited over illegals. Every time there's a ballot measure that makes it harder for an illegal alien to find work in this state, it passes.

They'd also admit their incredible hypocrisy. When illegals were working in Mariposa County's building boom, they were welcome, cheap labor.
You must be talking about some other state, since there is no Mariposa County here. Perhaps you are thinking of Maricopa County. The only people who consider illegals to be welcome, cheap labor are unscrupulous employers who need to be put out of business. This new law is just one more tool that will help to accomplish that goal, and if history is any indication, more tools are on the way.

[VictoriaK]

Perhaps you could elaborate on what you're talking about?


Well lets take the heath care bill since it's current. The constitutional justification for it is the commerce clause.

[The Congress shall have power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;


Now, by anyone wildest imagination, how does regulating commerce between states translate into forcing someone to purchase a product or face a fine?

[margaret mfume]

Do you have a citation on that? I know that there's been some nibbling, and being on a boat in the Detroit River was one of the conditions under which you had to be able to prove your identity....

I'd like to investigate further.

I tried tracking down a more specific account myself before posting. My source was an interview on WDET's local news program and the conditions rather than the specifics stuck with me. I've found a racial profiling case against the border patrol which makes reference to hispanic citizens being stopped repeatedly - one woman has been asked to produce papers while driving, pumping gas, and walking her child to school. I'll keep looking.

[Surreal]

Well lets take the heath care bill since it's current. The constitutional justification for it is the commerce clause.

[The Congress shall have power] To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian tribes;


Now, by anyone wildest imagination, how does regulating commerce between states translate into forcing someone to purchase a product or face a fine?

Why don't we take the Constitution to a separate thread.

And frankly, I'm really fucking sick of talking about the health care reform bill. I don't suppose you live in Massachusetts do you. :biggrin:

Also, the constitutionality of the HCR bill has yet to be determined.

[VictoriaK]

Why don't we take the Constitution to a separate thread.

And frankly, I'm really fucking sick of talking about the health care reform bill. I don't suppose you live in Massachusetts do you. :biggrin:

Also, the constitutionality of the HCR bill has yet to be determined.


Can the separate thread wait till tomorrow? Got a beef brisket about done, and a few other things to take care of.


:)

[Surreal]

Can the separate thread wait till tomorrow? Got a beef brisket about done, and a few other things to take care of.


:)

Sounds good.... I'll lay in some mixers for the bottle of vodka I'm trying to kill before I move.

Oh! Political argument makes the middle-aged brain healthier. :)

[margaret mfume]

I would be inclined to believe that 99% of the time, if a cop asks for your ID, they ether have a good reason to do so, or you have given them one by your actions. If you refuse (your right to do so) it's only going to make them suspicious that you are hiding something, and then they will find a reason to detain you till they establish your identity. I know every time I have been asked (told to) it was because of my behavior, with one exception. Loitering, interference with official acts (that's a catch all), they have all sorts of things they can use.

This has been my experience as well. I'm guessing the same could be said for any other non-black, non-latino, non-arabic metro Detroiter. :D

[Lum]

The only people who consider illegals to be welcome, cheap labor are unscrupulous employers who need to be put out of business.

How dare the government decide to put businesses out of business, merely because they "break laws". Why, it's...

SOCIALISM!!!!!

[Lum]

Also, the Constitution has prevented the US from ever suffering a military coup.

If nothing else, you should be thankful for that.

[Forest]

How dare the government decide to put businesses out of business, merely because they "break laws". Why, it's...

SOCIALISM!!!!!

This was full of lutz Lum but it reminded me how annoyed I am that the word"socialism" has been turned into a derogatory catchphrase. Same way the Republican party twisted "liberal" to mean something negative. :(

[Lum]

Oh, not as annoyed as I am. As someone who actually knows what state-run economies are and what they do to society, and how far we are from that, it sets my teeth on edge every time I hear it, and serves as further proof how ignorant our political discourse truly is. It was purely satirical, believe me.

[Redhead]

http://flexyourrights.org/faq/120


Excellent link! Thanks. :)

I have a couple more to share, but first I want to make it clear that I have nothing against the police. Most officers are good people who really do want to do a good job and protect the innocent. Yeah, you're gonna find some bad one just like anywhere else, they're human and that's just the way people are.

So, know your right, but always be polite and respectful when approached by the police. Not only will it benefit you by making the officer have a more positive attitude toward you, but chances are that cop is just doing their job and bears you no ill will. They have a shitty job so most of the time I'm willing to cut them a bit of slack as long as they aren't trying to intimidate me, bully me or abuse their power.

So with that said, here are a couple links from the ACLU:

http://www.aclu.org/racial-justice/know-your-rights-bustcard

http://www.aclu.org/files/pdfs/racialjustice/rp_bustcard_eng_20090929.pdf

[Phoenix Psaltery]

Arizona has apparently elected a cadre of morons to its House of Representatives. I swear the "Phoenix" thing has NOTHING to do with me.


Ariz House: Check Obama's Citizenship

PHOENIX -- The Arizona House on Monday voted for a provision that would require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate if he hopes to be on the state's ballot when he runs for reelection.

The House voted 31-22 to add the provision to a separate bill. The measure still faces a formal vote.

It would require U.S. presidential candidates who want to appear on the ballot in Arizona to submit documents proving they meet the constitutional requirements to be president.

Phoenix Democratic Rep. Kyrsten Sinema said the bill is one of several measures that are making Arizona "the laughing stock of the nation."
Mesa Republican Rep. Cecil Ash said he has no reason to doubt Obama's citizenship but supports the measure because it could help end doubt.

:facepalm:

P2

[Redhead]

Arizona has apparently elected a cadre of morons to its House of Representatives. I swear the "Phoenix" thing has NOTHING to do with me.



:facepalm:

P2


*sigh*

[Lum]

I'm sure GLE will weigh in and explain how Arizona is just being fair and shaking Obama down for his birth certificate repeatedly... no, not that one, the REAL one... no, the OTHER real one... is entirely normal and the fact that no other government official is treated as Muslim until proven innocent is an odd coincidence.

[Redhead]

I'm sure GLE will weigh in and explain how Arizona is just being fair and shaking Obama down for his birth certificate repeatedly... no, not that one, the REAL one... no, the OTHER real one... is entirely normal and the fact that no other government official is treated as Muslim until proven innocent is an odd coincidence.

I like how you said "Muslim" instead of "foreign born". Spot. On.

[Dakota Tebaldi]

PHOENIX -- The Arizona House on Monday voted for a provision that would require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate if he hopes to be on the state's ballot when he runs for reelection.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QQV9m4PZ_s

[Damien Thorne]

Arizona has apparently elected a cadre of morons to its House of Representatives. I swear the "Phoenix" thing has NOTHING to do with me.



:facepalm:

P2
Now that thing is stupid and if my state rep voted for it I will never support him again. But that has nothing to do with op and if I look I am sure I can find a multitude of equally stupid laws in that rest of you live in.

Now, getting back to the topic, Arizona passed the toughest employer law against hiring illegal aliens in the country in 2007. Unfortunately, the people here can't seem to elect county attorneys that have the balls to enforce the existing laws.

Those of you that don't live near the borders have no clue what the cost is both in dollars and lives to fuel the drug and cheap labor desires that the rest of the country wants so desperately.

South of Phoenix there is only one Trauma 1 ER still open because only state funded hospitals can absorb the cost of the people that try to cross that desert or get into accidents because the fucking coyotes were more worried about getting their cargo to the safe house on time rather than how many people die on the way there. We here fund the habits of the rest of the country... we deal with the violence that occurs on a daily basis so you all can have your gardeners and weed and coke.

And before anyone goes again to the "bunch of racists" crap... Arizona is 30 % (as of 2008 census estimates) hispanic and that doesn't include those that are at least half Hispanic in origin as are both my children. And my wife is Mexican and a nurse and she deals with the devastation to the people and to the hospitals in the area.

The Federal Govt. has done virtually nothing to enforce their own laws and maybe this one is unconstitutional but if it is a wake up call to feds then it is worth it. I doubt it but you in the rest of the country do not have to see your son locked into a classroom for 5 hours because drug runners came near his school.

So all in all from what I have read here, don't talk about things you know nothing about.

[Lula Svoboda]

PHOENIX -- The Arizona House on Monday voted for a provision that would require President Barack Obama to show his birth certificate if he hopes to be on the state's ballot when he runs for reelection.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2010/04/19/20100419birther-bill-arizona-approved-by-house.html

http://www.erin.tofugu.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/faceplant.jpg

[Surreal]

Those of you that don't live near the borders have no clue what the cost is both in dollars and lives to fuel the drug and cheap labor desires that the rest of the country wants so desperately.

So all in all from what I have read here, don't talk about things you know nothing about.

Yeah... cause you're the only one living or who has lived in a border state. ummm hmmm....

<--- 20 years in Texas and most of my family is still there. I'll be sure and tell my cousins in Brownsville how ignorant they are.

I don't want artificially cheap labor, nor the hidden costs that it generates. I do my damnedest not to be part of the problem. But this is a federal problem and any single state isn't equipped to handle it. The demand for labor has to be dried up, and that would require a nation-wide enforcement. Mexico's not going to help. Remittances are their #2 item in their GDP. The INS isn't going to help. They've got a huge, growing budget that depends on the problem never going away. You need federal laws and federal attorneys ... and the kind of effort like what it took to break the back of the mob.

Even then, you'll only knock it back to manageable levels if you provide ways for legal cheap labor. Otherwise you might as well bail the sea with a coffee cup.



South of Phoenix there is only one Trauma 1 ER still open because only state funded hospitals can absorb the cost of the people that try to cross that desert or get into accidents because the fucking coyotes were more worried about getting their cargo to the safe house on time rather than how many people die on the way there. We here fund the habits of the rest of the country... we deal with the violence that occurs on a daily basis so you all can have your gardeners and weed and coke.

I'll remember that if I ever get a gardener or take up drugs.

[margaret mfume]

A little food for thought, an interesting article from 2004 regarding the repatriation of Mexicans during hard economic times.

http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=6549

The reason for the demise of the Mexican community in Detroit and in cities across the nation was a little-reported, guileful, organized government campaign. The effort deprived thousands of Mexicans — most of whom were in the United States legally, many of whom were actually American citizens — of their basic civil liberties. They were sent packing back to Mexico as the United States confronted the economic horrors of the Great Depression.

It was called the Repatriation. Those who were its victims became collectively known as los repatriados.



Chinea says the rush of Mexicans to Detroit was well-orchestrated.

“A lot of them were recruited by local companies,” he says. “Ford Motor Company sent people to the border. They posted signs in the communities telling people that you could make so much money, that you could have housing, that you could eat three meals a day, that this was the way to go.

When the Depression hit in October of 1929, critics predicted the end of capitalism. Job opportunities ranged from scarce to nonexistent. A nationalistic swell of anti-Mexican sentiment grew into hysteria. Both those on the right and in organized labor, led by the American Federation of Labor, called for the preservation of jobs for “real Americans.”

The Herbert Hoover administration reacted by having the Immigration and Naturalization Service launch a campaign to deport the Mexicans, sending them back to their ravaged homeland, often without choice. So began the Repatriation.

[Rose Karuna]

Now that thing is stupid and if my state rep voted for it I will never support him again. But that has nothing to do with op and if I look I am sure I can find a multitude of equally stupid laws in that rest of you live in.

Now, getting back to the topic, Arizona passed the toughest employer law against hiring illegal aliens in the country in 2007. Unfortunately, the people here can't seem to elect county attorneys that have the balls to enforce the existing laws.

Those of you that don't live near the borders have no clue what the cost is both in dollars and lives to fuel the drug and cheap labor desires that the rest of the country wants so desperately.

South of Phoenix there is only one Trauma 1 ER still open because only state funded hospitals can absorb the cost of the people that try to cross that desert or get into accidents because the fucking coyotes were more worried about getting their cargo to the safe house on time rather than how many people die on the way there. We here fund the habits of the rest of the country... we deal with the violence that occurs on a daily basis so you all can have your gardeners and weed and coke.

And before anyone goes again to the "bunch of racists" crap... Arizona is 30 % (as of 2008 census estimates) hispanic and that doesn't include those that are at least half Hispanic in origin as are both my children. And my wife is Mexican and a nurse and she deals with the devastation to the people and to the hospitals in the area.

The Federal Govt. has done virtually nothing to enforce their own laws and maybe this one is unconstitutional but if it is a wake up call to feds then it is worth it. I doubt it but you in the rest of the country do not have to see your son locked into a classroom for 5 hours because drug runners came near his school.

So all in all from what I have read here, don't talk about things you know nothing about.

Your assumption that contributors to this thread don't know what their talking about because they don't currently live in Arizona is insulting.

I lived in Globe Arizona, I went to Northern ASU and I also lived (and worked in law enforcement in So Calif.), so I've seen the problem front and center.

The gem in your post is this: Now, getting back to the topic, Arizona passed the toughest employer law against hiring illegal aliens in the country in 2007. Unfortunately, the people here can't seem to elect county attorneys that have the balls to enforce the existing laws.

If they have the laws then they should enforce them and not enact new laws. If the county attorneys don't have balls, elect some politicians who do and who will fire them and hire someone to enforce the law.

Enacting more laws that are even questionable as to whether or not they are constitutional is not the best course of action, imo.

Oh, and fwiw -

" I doubt it but you in the rest of the country do not have to see your son locked into a classroom for 5 hours because drug runners came near his school." -

This has happened quite a few times in Florida.

[Lula Svoboda]

I just called Governor Jan Brewer and asked her not to sign the bill.

[Forest]

Yeah... cause you're the only one living or who has lived in a border state. ummm hmmm....

<--- 20 years in Texas and most of my family is still there. I'll be sure and tell my cousins in Brownsville how ignorant they are.

Just a little edumacation for the non-Texans out there. Brownsville is just across the boarder from Madamores (sp?) and is the largest crossing point on the boarder after El Paso. Surreal can speak more but my experience was that Anglos were a minority to Hispanics there.

Not making any comment on the subject, just clarifying the information for those not familiar with it.

[Surreal]

If you really wanted to stop almost all illegal immigration:


Add biometric data to Social Security database.
Provide a once daily one-way dump to a website where employers could enter biometric data real-time to confirm eligibility to work status.
Vigorously enforce the existing laws against employers as they will no longer be able to claim they were given forged documents.


Barriers to implementation:

zOMG the government is collecting data about me!!! Data security is something we must deal with asap anyway. If you knew how much info is already out there and accessible, you'd pee yourself. Technology isn't going to go away, or get less complex or pervasive. We need ways to ensure accuracy, security and transparency now.

A read-only site wouldn't compromise the integrity of the SS database. If anything, it would allow people to check their own data for accuracy easily and as frequently as they wanted. You would still need to go down to the SS office and go through a process to have info changed. Concentrate the security at those sites with write-access.

Who currently profits. The folks who currently make money and political capital off the system won't want it changed. That includes large employers; bureaucracies like the INS which have a budget stake in maintaining the status quo; politicians who use pheer of illegals to whip up drama, funds and votes; fringe movements that thrive on xenophobia.

You can argue that the average consumer profits because companies like Tyson uses illegal, cheap labor, so we get cheap chicken. Or that illegal labor picks crops. Or that illegals working as janitors and other crappy jobs mean prices stay low.

But are prices really low? I assert that they're not... we're just paying the costs elsewhere - in increased law enforcement, hospital fees, taxes to support the INS and the like, schools, crime, etc.

And most importantly, we don't really know how many jobs there are that "Americans won't do." And more importantly, we don't know how many jobs there are that Americans "won't do" if they were paid minimum wage and didn't have to worry about health insurance.

Would food prices go up? Yes they would, but probably not as much as you think.

If we find that there are jobs Americans won't do, then provide legal routes for people who will do them to become guest workers where the work is seasonal. Or to become citizens where the work is permanent. But keep minimum wage the floor so as to give the folks born here a change to fairly complete and to avoid the usual employer dodges.

Oh.. and FFS, just legalize pot, grow it here, and get the fucking Mexican drug cartels out of importing it or growing it in extremely dangerous stealth farms in the Pacific NW>

[Surreal]

... buggered double post instead of editing

(Or, we could invade Mexico, impose martial law, shoot every official who takes money from drug cartels or human traffickers. Close down the maquiladoras (cause toxic waste respects national borders) and bomb certain compounds back into the Mesozoic - We could put Sarah Palin on the job. She wants to be all totalitarian and bitchy.)

All this has made me hungry for Tex Mex for dinner tonight.

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

The article says this about Arizona's "birther law:"

Similar laws have been proposed in Oklahoma, Florida and Missouri. None have been signed into law.
But by all means just use Arizona as the only example. I know if a bunch of people questioned my citizenship, I would drag out my birth certificate and shove it in their faces. The fact that Obama's birth certificate is locked away and hidden only adds fuel to the conspiracy fire.

Now, getting back to the topic, Arizona passed the toughest employer law against hiring illegal aliens in the country in 2007. Unfortunately, the people here can't seem to elect county attorneys that have the balls to enforce the existing laws.
It's not that. Andrew Thomas was County Attorney in Maricopa County until recently, and he carried his in a wheelbarrow. As I understand it, it's difficult and time-consuming to build a good case that proves that an employer knowingly hired illegals. If the employer says "Well, his ID looked okay to me so I put him on the payroll," it's your word against his that he knew the ID was fake. I'm not an expert on the "e-verify" system, but maybe that's going to help with future prosecutions.

Your assumption that contributors to this thread don't know what their talking about because they don't currently live in Arizona is insulting.
The actual quote was this:

Those of you that don't live near the borders have no clue what the cost is both in dollars and lives to fuel the drug and cheap labor desires that the rest of the country wants so desperately.

I don't want artificially cheap labor, nor the hidden costs that it generates. I do my damnedest not to be part of the problem. But this is a federal problem and any single state isn't equipped to handle it.
Yes, this is a federal problem, but since the feds aren't stopping the flow of illegals across the border, the states have to step up and do something. I thought that when George Bush took office, things would change and we would get some action. He turned out to be as bad as his predecessor and his successor when it came to border protection. In some areas, our border fence consists of three strands of barbed wire, watched by no one. Illegals come streaming northward, and many of them die every year trying to cross our desert. We can't build a wall there because the enviro-weenies complain about disrupting the migration patterns of the variegated desert tortoise, but meanwhile the illegals leave tons of backpacks and water bottles and dirty diapers behind them as they advance and that's not seen as an environmental disaster because critters aren't involved. Illegals bring diseases: malaria, dengue, leprosy, tuberculosis, chagas disease, all unknown or at very low levels in the US until the past few years (Reference (http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_diseases.html)). And the crime, holy moley, murders and rapes and drunken driving and child molesting. Luckily there has been a recent downturn:

A marked drop in Phoenix-area crime coincides with the recession and a drop in the number of illegal immigrants in Arizona.

Phoenix has seen a 25 percent decline in the number of crimes during the first five months of 2009 compared to the same time period in 2007 when the economy began to slow. Violent crime in Phoenix is down 12 percent, according crime statistics from the Phoenix Police Department.

The Mesa Police Department reports a 19 percent decrease in total crimes for the first half of 2009 versus the first half of 2007, including a 10 percent drop in violent crime. Tempe has seen a 25 percent total drop.

At the same time, the state's illegal immigrant population has decreased by as much as one-third thanks to the down U.S. economy, tougher enforcement polices by the federal government and Maricopa County Sheriff's Office, as well as the state's employer sanctions law which goes after businesses who hire undocumented workers, said Steven Camarota, director of the Center for Immigration Studies.
Reference (http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2009/07/27/daily89.html)

We have to do something about this. We can't continue to sit on our hands and say "It's a federal problem, come on feds, take care of the problem for us." They won't do anything, so we have to step up and protect our citizens. I know I'm preaching to the choir with some of you but I hope this helps the rest to understand.

[Rose Karuna]

... buggered double post instead of editing

(Or, we could invade Mexico, impose martial law, shoot every official who takes money from drug cartels or human traffickers. Close down the maquiladoras (cause toxic waste respects national borders) and bomb certain compounds back into the Mesozoic - We could put Sarah Palin on the job. She wants to be all totalitarian and bitchy.)

All this has made me hungry for Tex Mex for dinner tonight.

Now I'm all disappointed 'cause I thought you were making ribs. :argh:

[Surreal]

Just a little edumacation for the non-Texans out there. Brownsville is just across the boarder from Madamores (sp?) and is the largest crossing point on the boarder after El Paso. Surreal can speak more but my experience was that Anglos were a minority to Hispanics there.

Fuxxor... I just lost my post.

A few years back I drove through Matamoros whilst moving back from Belize. Both towns were changed alot from when I was a kid. We used to go camping on the Boca Chica state park, by that I mean we'd drive until we hit the beach, then take a right and go until we hit the Rio Grande. In those days, I could wade across the border. Beautiful and desolate.

My cousins own land which abuts the border. I recall them saying that there's a fence there now. They didn't have a lot of problems before or after the fence. They're more concerned about how poverty, unemployment and a growing population has impacted where they live.

Fucktards like the current governor like to blame the Hispanic population for the problems in the Rio Grande Valley communities, but the reality has more to do with the climate, water availability (thank you upstream folks for drinking/irrigating the Rio Grande dry), lack of industry, etc. And of course there is some "zOMG brown people" flight as well.

People seem to forget that without water and air conditioning, Texas is that place described by the famous quote: "If I owned Texas and Hell, I'd rent out Texas and live in Hell." ~General Phillip H. Sheridan.

[Surreal]

Now I'm all disappointed 'cause I thought you were making ribs. :argh:

Nah... called up some friends and we're headed for Mexican tonight. Enchiladas Poblanos for me I think... plenty of chips and hot salsa.

[Trout]

Damnit, Surreal. Now I'm starving for Mexican food, and my Lean Pocket for lunch isn't looking so appetizing. (not that it ever looked all that appetizing, but now it looks especially bad)

I lived in the South San Joaquin Valley for 18 years, so, hopefully, that qualifies me to have an opinion.

First, if the counties aren't enforcing the laws that are already in place, how will this one change anything? That's a serious, non-rhetorical question. How is this law different. If it isn't, then isn't it just political saber-rattling designed to make the voters happy and not effect any kind of real change? What will be the actual practical effect of the law?

I actually agree with GLE on one point (well, two points, if you count me agreeing that Arizona in the winter is a wonderful place). This should be a federal issue. The border is more than just Arizona. The federal government has completely dropped the ball and dumped this problem on the states, I suspect because it is a political hot potato and they don't want to deal with it. My guess is that Democrats consider Arizona a lost cause and they don't want to lose votes in contested states, and Republicans think they have Arizona in the bag and also don't want to piss off contested states (which are states without the immigration challenges that Arizona faces).

Something needs to be done for a number of reasons. I like the idea of making it easier for workers to come in and do seasonal jobs, or fill the gaps by working in jobs where employers can't find citizens to do them. It might ease the problem of the coyotes and the death toll of people trying to cross the border illegally. Building a giant wall is a stupid idea. It might have kept the Mongol hordes out of China, but come on. It is totally impractical now. I'm concerned about employers having the burden of verifying that an ID is valid because I don't think they have the tools available to them to do that.

I'm not saying that employers aren't complicit in illegal immigration. I'm just worried that in sweeping up the bad employers, you will get good ones who thought they were hiring a legal immigrant. I'm worried that the end result will be employers not trusting any form of ID and just not hiring people based on skin color. It's a tough problem. Do employers have the ability to run checks with the police database to see if an ID is valid? I assume they would have to run those checks on everyone, not just Hispanics. What would the cost be, and are there any Constitutional issues there? How would white people react to having to prove they are citizens just like the Hispanics?

In Arizona's defense, it's a beautiful state and the time I spent there is one of my fondest memories. I really enjoyed the people I met there, and I can see why Damien is defensive about his home. If people were pounding on Washington as hard as they are pounding on Arizona, I'd feel a little defensive as well.

[Cherish]

Just a little edumacation for the non-Texans out there. Brownsville is just across the boarder from Madamores (sp?) and is the largest crossing point on the boarder after El Paso. Surreal can speak more but my experience was that Anglos were a minority to Hispanics there.

Not making any comment on the subject, just clarifying the information for those not familiar with it.

Do you have any stats on that. I just saw on the news a few days ago that the highest percentage cross over in Cochise County AZ, or are you just talking about TX?

[Surreal]

First, if the counties aren't enforcing the laws that are already in place, how will this one change anything? That's a serious, non-rhetorical question. How is this law different. If it isn't, then isn't it just political saber-rattling designed to make the voters happy and not effect any kind of real change? What will be the actual practical effect of the law?

:qft:

I'm concerned about employers having the burden of verifying that an ID is valid because I don't think they have the tools available to them to do that.

This is why I say give them the tools. We already have to provide ID to get hired, let's just make the ID check worth something.

A fingerprint scanner for a PC runs around $80. If you're big employer, that's less than your going to spin on toner and paper making photocopies of ID documents. If you're a small employer, it's still a one-time durable purchase which you will make back in avoiding fines and not having to photocopy this that and the other for your records.

[Surreal]

Well I crossed there. :D

It took 4 hours. We had our papers inspected at least 5 times. We were sniffed by dogs and hand-searched and then sent to have the entire car x-rayed in a giant machine they use to x-ray 18 wheelers.

Heh... we even had the legal limit on rum.

I embraced the What-A-Burger immediately outside the border crossing. Was seriously jonesing for some fast food after a year without any.

[Trout]

:qft:



This is why I say give them the tools. We already have to provide ID to get hired, let's just make the ID check worth something.

A fingerprint scanner for a PC runs around $80. If you're big employer, that's less than your going to spin on toner and paper making photocopies of ID documents. If you're a small employer, it's still a one-time durable purchase which you will make back in avoiding fines and not having to photocopy this that and the other for your records.

I'm much more comfortable with placing the burden on companies if I'm sure that they have the ability to properly verify the employee's status. I don't care so much about the expense for large employers, because the expense for them will be less of a burden than for small employers. I just don't know what they have access to as far as verification. Not arguing with you, I honestly don't know. Can they access the same databases that the police can?

[Lum]

I know if a bunch of people questioned my citizenship, I would drag out my birth certificate and shove it in their faces. The fact that Obama's birth certificate is locked away and hidden only adds fuel to the conspiracy fire.

I know, it's so locked and hidden away, it must be CONSPIRACY! (http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html)

Oh what a surprise, you're a birther, too.

[Surreal]

I'm much more comfortable with placing the burden on companies if I'm sure that they have the ability to properly verify the employee's status. I don't care so much about the expense for large employers, because the expense for them will be less of a burden than for small employers. I just don't know what they have access to as far as verification. Not arguing with you, I honestly don't know. Can they access the same databases that the police can?

You didn't read my post did you... SKIMMER!!!! :argh:

They specifically need access to the SS database. Which is why I suggested adding a biometric component and doing a one-way dump to a read-only, real-time website where they could verify.

Protects integrity of data while providing honest employers with verification. Takes away dishonest employer's excuses.

Also would stop a brisk business in forged documents.

[Cherish]

There is also a little known fact that goes on in AZ and probably other states too. Many legal immigrants (or are now citizens) own small businesses and intentional hire illegals to work for them. No, they don't pay taxes, they are all paid in cash. They stuff them all in one house so there is no record of them.

[Surreal]

I laugh about the birthers. I wish I had a bridge or some land in Florida to sell them.

I've got two birth certificates with different last names and Dads - both of which are perfectly valid and legal.

My grandfather signed as the witness on my first birth certificate. It was he or the taxi driver. My Mom didn't make it to the hospital - Kansas in December in a really bad storm.

My son's birth certificate was signed by a midwife as a witness since he was born at home.

One of my brothers on my Dad's side of the family was born in an airplane, over the Atlantic I think. That was back when they didn't get quite so hardcore about flying in the last month, and he was a bit early.

My Mom was born in a farm house with no one around but her Mom and two-year old sister. The rest of the family was out working.

Jeez people. Get over it.

[Cherish]

You didn't read my post did you... SKIMMER!!!! :argh:

They specifically need access to the SS database. Which is why I suggested adding a biometric component and doing a one-way dump to a read-only, real-time website where they could verify.

Protects integrity of data while providing honest employers with verification. Takes away dishonest employer's excuses.

Also would stop a brisk business in forged documents.

This is the way they supposedly take care of that problem in AZ:
"Department of Economic Security"
Federal and State law requires employers to report newly hired and re-hired employees in Arizona to the Arizona New Hire Reporting Center. Please use this site to provide you with information about reporting new hires including reporting online and other reporting options!

EDIT adding a bit more info: This is actual for child support and is a law in all States, but it most definitely could be used to sort out illegals also.

[Damien Thorne]

Employers are required to use the Fed's E-Verify system for all employees hired after Jan 1, 2008 no matter how small the company is.

Also in my reading of the bill, it does not require immigration status be checked as stated in the CNN article states. Basically it tries to stop local governments from restricting law enforcement officials from enforcing current Federal Immigration laws. It also strengths some of the employer sanctions.

Here is a pdf of the bill.
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

[Trout]

You didn't read my post did you... SKIMMER!!!! :argh:

They specifically need access to the SS database. Which is why I suggested adding a biometric component and doing a one-way dump to a read-only, real-time website where they could verify.

Protects integrity of data while providing honest employers with verification. Takes away dishonest employer's excuses.

Also would stop a brisk business in forged documents.

I didn't skim it. I have you on ignore. You make me ANGRY!!! RAAAAWWWW!

Seriously, I sort of skimmed it because one-way biometric dumps to the Nazi SS database confuses me. I don't know what that means. (actually, I know you meant social security and not Hitler's henchmen, but I still don't know exactly what that means). If it makes my eyes glaze over, then it is bound to do the same for employers. I work with a LOT of businesses, and there are so many of them that are incredibly good at what they do, but not so great in terms of understanding business and what is required of them to operate their business. I know that ignorance is no excuse, but still, it seems unfair.

I'd like to see legal standards in place. For example, if you can say, "you must collect the following pieces of ID and run this report, and if you have those things in your employees file, then you are not liable if they turn out to be illegal." I like it better when the standards they are going to be judged on are written out and not left to the whim of the county prosecutor.

EDIT - in the time it took me to write this post, answer the phone, edit and hit post, a lot of my questions were answered. Sorry about that.

[Rose Karuna]

I'm much more comfortable with placing the burden on companies if I'm sure that they have the ability to properly verify the employee's status. I don't care so much about the expense for large employers, because the expense for them will be less of a burden than for small employers. I just don't know what they have access to as far as verification. Not arguing with you, I honestly don't know. Can they access the same databases that the police can?

Some can, if they do contract work that's sensitive for a government entity. The problem is that unless they had their fingerprints taken for a bond, military or some other reason, (including criminal) then they won't be in the database. Excepted are legal immigrants of course, who now have to provide biometrics.

I agree with Surreal I think we need stronger, non-forgable, biometric ID. The huge problem that I see with that is that, sure as a bear shits in the woods, law enforcement and corporations will be dipping into it for their own nefarious purposes, linking it to other databases and not just using to validate ID.

I know some people think that's ok, but I don't, I value my privacy.

I have opposed a national ID for only one reason - there are no privacy laws in this country that would keep everyone's grubby mitts off the info and keep it from being used for anything except ID.

So I think there is much to address when it comes to illegal immigration. However, if some brass balled county attorney started arresting CEO's I can gurandamntee you that some senators and congress people would kick into gear and begin to do something about it.

Nobody really gives a shit about joe the plummer but when CEO Snidleymorgan Whipstanley is arrested politicians get phone calls at midnight.

[Lum]

John McCain yells at immigrants to stop having accidents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDPuNA7L0QU

[Ayu Sura]

We employed a nanny for about four months. As in, the works, withholding, unemployment, etc. One piece of paperwork was for her to state that she could legally work in the US. She fills out the form, gives us photocopies of her soc sec card and ID, and that's it - there's no process that we found anywhere for verifying the information. I think we're just supposed to look at her social security card or something, but that's very fuzzy.

I don't think employers are required to verify anything beyond having them fill out and sign a form and give us photocopies of ID. If there was, we didn't see anything in the instructions we looked up.

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

I know, it's so locked and hidden away, it must be CONSPIRACY! (http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html)

Oh what a surprise, you're a birther, too.

Nope. I'm an agnostic on that subject, i.e., I don't believe and I don't disbelieve. I do, however, have questions. For example, I would like to know what the original birth certificate looks like:

The birth of each baby at a hospital in Hawaii in 1961 generated a long-form birth certificate signed by the attending physician and specifying all relevant information about the birth, including the baby's name, parents' names, the hospital, and the weight of the baby, his race and the time of birth.
Reference including sample 1963 birth certificate (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=103796)

[Lum]

Nope. I'm an agnostic on that subject, i.e., I don't believe and I don't disbelieve. I do, however, have questions. For example, I would like to know what the original birth certificate looks like:


Reference including sample 1963 birth certificate (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?pageId=103796)

I was born roughly the same year as Obama. My birth certificate appears identical to that, BECAUSE IT'S WHAT THE STATE FUCKING SENDS YOU WHEN YOU ASK FOR IT. Amazingly, when I get a passport or apply for a job or otherwise have to prove I was born in this country, that's what I show them. I've never had them say "oh, well, that's not official enough, we want to see the ORIGINAL, you know, the one with THE ENGRAVED WAX SEAL APPLIED BY GOOD KING HENRY", despite what professional moonbat Jerome Corsi might drool onto loving pools of spit masquerading as 'news websites'.

But you go right on being agnostic. Meanwhile, I've decided to be agnostic on whether you rape small children. I mean, no one has ever disproved it to my personal satisfaction, so clearly doubt exists.

[Cherish]

I don't see any footprints on that thing.

[Forest]

Do you have any stats on that. I just saw on the news a few days ago that the highest percentage cross over in Cochise County AZ, or are you just talking about TX?

Sorry, I meant 2nd in Texas. it's my understanding that the largest LEGAL crossing is in Tijuana into California followed by El Pass into Texas. By far the largest ILLEGAL crossing is in AZ flowing up to Tuscon and Pheonix. I could be wrong on those of course and it may have changed. Just my understanding.

[Jen]

John McCain yells at immigrants to stop having accidents.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yDPuNA7L0QU

In fairness, he might be referring to this:

http://ezinearticles.com/?Automotive-Insurance-Fraud---Staged-Accidents&id=2719201

...it's all the rage in New Jersey as well- and usually carloads of illegal immigrants are doing it.

[Forest]

I know, it's so locked and hidden away, it must be CONSPIRACY! (http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate.html)

Oh what a surprise, you're a birther, too.

No, not that one Lum, the REAL one. You know, the one he's hiding :fist:

[Dancien]

the whole culture of 'your papers please' is something straight out of the cold war.

See what you fucking idiot republicans have made me do? You've made me agree with Nina.

[PrettierHateMachine]

I know, Dan. I feel dirty too. Are you going to be okay? I'm auditioning therapists because of this.

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

I was born roughly the same year as Obama. My birth certificate appears identical to that, BECAUSE IT'S WHAT THE STATE FUCKING SENDS YOU WHEN YOU ASK FOR IT.

Exactly. I asked for a birth certificate from my home state a few years ago, and they sent me something that looked like Obama's shown on fightthesmears.com. I could have generated the same thing on a color printer using Photoshop.

But I was born 10 years prior to Obama, and my original birth certificate is still available, and still has the name of the hospital and the attending physician and my footprints on it. Obama's original birth certificate, not the laser-printed copy, is what people want to see.

Obama: Where have all his records gone? (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100613)

[Trout]

Exactly. I asked for a birth certificate from my home state a few years ago, and they sent me something that looked like Obama's shown on fightthesmears.com. I could have generated the same thing on a color printer using Photoshop.

But I was born 10 years prior to Obama, and my original birth certificate is still available, and still has the name of the hospital and the attending physician and my footprints on it. Obama's original birth certificate, not the laser-printed copy, is what people want to see.

Obama: Where have all his records gone? (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100613)

Were you born in Hawaii?

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

No, Oregon.

[Lum]

blah blah worldnetdaily blah blah orly taitz blah blah

I'm sorry, I'd link you to a complete debunking (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html)of quite possibly the craziest conspiracy theory of modern times, but I can't hear you over the sound of the babies you're raping.

[Trout]

I mean...if you weren't born in Hawaii, then it's none of your business how they keep their records, right? Isn't this one of those states' rights issues that you guys are always screaming about? There is no mention of record keeping in the Constitution, therefore it is a matter reserved for the states. There's nothing in the Constitution that says that the federal government has the right to demand anyone's birth certificate, right? In fact, that could potentially violate the Constitution, since people are to be allowed to travel freely from state to state.

If it's not in the Constitution, then it's Hawaii's business. Hell, they don't even have to issue birth certificates at all. maybe his ohana can vouch for him. Just because YOUR state does something doesn't mean you have the right to force some other state to do it, right? You wouldn't be happy if, for example, California passed a law requiring Arizonans while in Arizona to comply with California's gun control laws.

This is the same thing. I think you're just mad because your state doesn't get to tell other states what they have to do.

[Dancien]

Exactly. I asked for a birth certificate from my home state a few years ago, and they sent me something that looked like Obama's shown on fightthesmears.com. I could have generated the same thing on a color printer using Photoshop.

But I was born 10 years prior to Obama, and my original birth certificate is still available, and still has the name of the hospital and the attending physician and my footprints on it. Obama's original birth certificate, not the laser-printed copy, is what people want to see.

Obama: Where have all his records gone? (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100613)

So, I don't say this often. But when I do, I really really mean it.

Will you please just kill yourself?

[Dakota Tebaldi]

But I was born 10 years prior to Obama, and my original birth certificate is still available, and still has the name of the hospital and the attending physician and my footprints on it. Obama's original birth certificate, not the laser-printed copy, is what people want to see.

Unnecessary. The fake-looking printout birth certificate (I've got one too, from my state) is considered equal to a complete original birth certificate for purposes of employment and obtaining State and Federal identification, including passports. It's good enough for everything and everyone, except a few imbeciles who refuse to believe Obama isn't a muslim from Tanzania or wherever.

John McCain will tell you point blank that he wasn't born in the United States; but the simple explanation that he was born overseas to an active duty military parent was sufficient. Nobody cared enough to demand a birth certificate from him to "prove it" during his presidential run, not even Democrats. No such a demand has ever been made in the history of the nation; it's nothing but a backhanded insult, and even if Obama gave his "original" birth certificate to be broadcast on the news and SMS'd to every American's cell phone, it still wouldn't convince those people who are demanding it.

[Lain (is Bams)]

I think they feel if they keep saying it over and over, it will become true.

"There is no birth certificate, there is no birth certificate..." :crazy:

:bams:

[Trout]

I think they feel if they keep saying it over and over, it will become true.

"There is no birth certificate, there is no birth certificate..." :crazy:

:bams:

They're supposed to wave their hand in front of his face first to get him to admit there is no birth certificate, like Obi Wan Kenobi.

Still - nobody outside of Hawaiian jurisdiction has a right to dictate what sorts of birth records Hawaii keeps. I'm starting to like the whole States Rights things. The other 49 states can F' off. I'm not American! I'm a Washingtonian! Screw you people! We're going to raise an army and invade BC, then we'll legalize pot, prostitution and homosexuality, and import slave labor from Idaho! I hear they grow some mighty fine potato pickers over there. Then we'll build a theme park called Disneyland, and when the real Disney company tries to sue us, we'll deny the jurisdiction of everyone else, because the Constitution says we can. STATES RIGHTS WHEEEEEEE-FTW!!!11!!01011101!!!

[Lum]

Yeah, but you're stuck with Microsoft.

[Trout]

Yeah, but you're stuck with Microsoft.
Crap. I forgot about that.

Good luck to the rest of the USA, though. When you all go into Starbucks withdrawal we're going to have to turn the Columbia into a moat.

[Richard Waveington]

Exactly. I asked for a birth certificate from my home state a few years ago, and they sent me something that looked like Obama's shown on fightthesmears.com. I could have generated the same thing on a color printer using Photoshop.

But I was born 10 years prior to Obama, and my original birth certificate is still available, and still has the name of the hospital and the attending physician and my footprints on it. Obama's original birth certificate, not the laser-printed copy, is what people want to see.

Obama: Where have all his records gone? (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100613)

Not that you have any to begin with, but this does your credibility no favours.

[Surreal]

I mean...if you weren't born in Hawaii, then it's none of your business how they keep their records, right? Isn't this one of those states' rights issues that you guys are always screaming about? There is no mention of record keeping in the Constitution, therefore it is a matter reserved for the states. There's nothing in the Constitution that says that the federal government has the right to demand anyone's birth certificate, right? In fact, that could potentially violate the Constitution, since people are to be allowed to travel freely from state to state.

If it's not in the Constitution, then it's Hawaii's business. Hell, they don't even have to issue birth certificates at all. maybe his ohana can vouch for him. Just because YOUR state does something doesn't mean you have the right to force some other state to do it, right? You wouldn't be happy if, for example, California passed a law requiring Arizonans while in Arizona to comply with California's gun control laws.

This is the same thing. I think you're just mad because your state doesn't get to tell other states what they have to do.

I love Trout. How does your wife feel about having a junior wife? I can cook? (but remember, if she's as hawt as advertised.... )

[Surreal]

I haven't thought about it, but does Kansas really have my original birth certificate? The documents I've got look like they were printed off a microfiche machine. I mean really... I've no clue how many people have been born in Kansas in the last 50 years, but if the original paper for all of them is sitting around in some tunnel somewhere (assuming it hasn't been eaten by rodents, roaches, mold or used as rolling papers by stoned state employees), taking care of those mountains of paper must be a significant budget line item.

I'm betting it's all microfiche and they're saving their pennies to stick it all on computers... makes for smaller bunkers and you don't get paper cuts trying to hunt through it.

[Dakota Tebaldi]

I haven't thought about it, but does Kansas really have my original birth certificate? The documents I've got look like they were printed off a microfiche machine. I mean really... I've no clue how many people have been born in Kansas in the last 50 years, but if the original paper for all of them is sitting around in some tunnel somewhere (assuming it hasn't been eaten by rodents, roaches, mold or used as rolling papers by stoned state employees), taking care of those mountains of paper must be a significant budget line item.

I'm betting it's all microfiche and they're saving their pennies to stick it all on computers... makes for smaller bunkers and you don't get paper cuts trying to hunt through it.

Well if you're an OLD PERSON there's a chance your original birth certificate may have completely rotted away by now, so all that's left is microfiche. :D

[Trout]

I love Trout. How does your wife feel about having a junior wife? I can cook? (but remember, if she's as hawt as advertised.... )

Cooking is a plus. Do you do dishes, too?

[Damien Thorne]

I haven't thought about it, but does Kansas really have my original birth certificate? The documents I've got look like they were printed off a microfiche machine. I mean really... I've no clue how many people have been born in Kansas in the last 50 years, but if the original paper for all of them is sitting around in some tunnel somewhere (assuming it hasn't been eaten by rodents, roaches, mold or used as rolling papers by stoned state employees), taking care of those mountains of paper must be a significant budget line item.

I'm betting it's all microfiche and they're saving their pennies to stick it all on computers... makes for smaller bunkers and you don't get paper cuts trying to hunt through it.I requested a copy of mine from Kansas a few years ago. I recieved a laminated Birth Registration Card. About the size of a credit card.

[Trout]

I requested a copy of mine from Kansas a few years ago. I recieved a laminated Birth Registration Card. About the size of a credit card.

That's because you were born in Kenya.

[Jorus]

I was born roughly the same year as Obama. My birth certificate appears identical to that, BECAUSE IT'S WHAT THE STATE FUCKING SENDS YOU WHEN YOU ASK FOR IT.



Exactly. I asked for a birth certificate from my home state a few years ago, and they sent me something that looked like Obama's shown on fightthesmears.com. I could have generated the same thing on a color printer using Photoshop.



But I was born 10 years prior to Obama, and my original birth certificate is still available, and still has the name of the hospital and the attending physician and my footprints on it. Obama's original birth certificate, not the laser-printed copy, is what people want to see.



Obama: Where have all his records gone? (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100613)

Not every state provides that. In fact, my original straight from the hospital has none of that. If you look up hawaii they won't provide long form because they don't keep long form. So tell me, did Marty and Doc use the delorian one last time to print his birth announcement in the newspapers as well? Those rascals and their time traveling antics!

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Damien Thorne]

That's because you were born in Kenya.
Kansas City, Kenya just doesn't have the same ring to it.

[Surreal]

Cooking is a plus. Do you do dishes, too?

And laundry!

[Lum]

Ironically, since Kenya had not achieved independence from the UK at the time of Obama's birth, Obama would, if the highly intricate clockwork conspiracy theories are true, actually be a British citizen.

Which would explain why Lyndon LaRouche hates him so. (http://lyndonlarouchewatch.org/fascism29.htm)

[Surreal]

Wichita ...
yup, I'm from Africa too... I mean listen to that tribal sound. :D

:ninja: See the face scarf!!

('s OK though, I'm something worse than a Muslim, I'm an GOD DENYING ATHEIST COMING 4 UR CHILDREN)

[Surreal]

Ironically, since Kenya had not achieved independence from the UK at the time of Obama's birth, Obama would, if the highly intricate clockwork conspiracy theories are true, actually be a British citizen.

Which would explain why Lyndon LaRouche hates him so. (http://lyndonlarouchewatch.org/fascism29.htm)

Brilliant *goes to call crazy brother*

[Lum]

('s OK though, I'm something worse than a Muslim, I'm an GOD DENYING ATHEIST COMING 4 UR CHILDREN)

To convert them to teh gay?

[Surreal]

Which would explain why Lyndon LaRouche hates him so. (http://lyndonlarouchewatch.org/fascism29.htm)

I don't think I'll ever get the brain cells back that were killed by reading that tripe.

[Surreal]

To convert them to teh gay?

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j182/swiftian/063007/billo1.jpg

[Lum]

I don't think I'll ever get the brain cells back that were killed by reading that tripe.

That's just a DESCRIPTION of LaRouche tripe.

I advise having alcohol or other mindwipe handy before reading. (http://www.larouchepub.com/lar/1999/lar_blair_makes_case_2617.html)

[Dakota Tebaldi]

...it's all the rage in New Jersey as well- and usually carloads of illegal immigrants are doing it.

I bet I can solve this. Just drop the "I must not leave enough room between me and the car ahead of me to allow anyone to merge in front of me" mindset. Immunity +10.

[Cherish]

The car with the front bumper in front of the other has the right of way.. Hard lesson learned in Europe.

[Trout]

Kansas City, Kenya just doesn't have the same ring to it.

KC has better BBQ, too. And you're much less likely to be killed by a raging hippopotamus. All in all, KC was a good choice on your part.

[Forest]

Kansas City, Kenya just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Ok, but you must be Muslim.

[Forest]

I haven't thought about it, but does Kansas really have my original birth certificate? The documents I've got look like they were printed off a microfiche machine. I mean really... I've no clue how many people have been born in Kansas in the last 50 years, but if the original paper for all of them is sitting around in some tunnel somewhere (assuming it hasn't been eaten by rodents, roaches, mold or used as rolling papers by stoned state employees), taking care of those mountains of paper must be a significant budget line item.

I'm betting it's all microfiche and they're saving their pennies to stick it all on computers... makes for smaller bunkers and you don't get paper cuts trying to hunt through it.

:burka:

[Monna]

KC has better BBQ, too.

Derail


Here you go Trout this to me is the best sauce in KC

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/4542303722_a49500f448_o.jpg

[Govi]

Exactly. I asked for a birth certificate from my home state a few years ago, and they sent me something that looked like Obama's shown on fightthesmears.com. I could have generated the same thing on a color printer using Photoshop.

But I was born 10 years prior to Obama, and my original birth certificate is still available, and still has the name of the hospital and the attending physician and my footprints on it. Obama's original birth certificate, not the laser-printed copy, is what people want to see.

Obama: Where have all his records gone? (http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=100613)

You sad little man. I had thought you were capable of reasoned thought and decent research. <sigh>

[Govi]

Yeah, but you're stuck with Microsoft.

Broken McAfee DAT update cripples Windows workstations (http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2010/04/broken-mcafee-dat-update-cripples-windows-workstations.ars)

From the viewpoint of how they affect my system, I am not sure which is worse, the virus makers or the virus preventers. But to me, MS is the least part of the problem, these days.

[Lum]

Broken McAfee DAT update cripples Windows workstations (http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2010/04/broken-mcafee-dat-update-cripples-windows-workstations.ars)

From the viewpoint of how they affect my system, I am not sure which is worse, the virus makers or the virus preventers. But to me, MS is the least part of the problem, these days.

This actually took down half our office (everyone with older machines on XP) today and pretty much crippled us all day.

Sadly/luckily, both my machines were running Win7 and thus immune.

I blame illegal immigrants from Hawaii.

[Trout]

Derail


Here you go Trout this to me is the best sauce in KC

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4002/4542303722_a49500f448_o.jpg

Not to continue the derail, but BBQ (real BBQ) is a deep passion of mine. I've pulled many all-nighters tending to a smoker. I make all my own sauces and rubs, but I'm always looking for a new taste. I'll definitely take this recommendation and go see if I can find some. Thanks!

[Mulch]

John McCain yells at immigrants to stop having accidents.

:notworthy:

ok im not really in this thread or :coco:ing this thread

carry on

[Lain (is Bams)]

Yeah, but you're stuck with Microsoft.

Just L2 *nix =D

:bong:

[Lula Svoboda]

I don't mean to rerail a derail (yes I do) but... this is the state I am in...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Pub_yLt7F98/S8_nTNTebNI/AAAAAAAABYA/m4lPt0hobZs/s1600/LaloAlcaraz.jpg

[barry winterwolf]

I have to assume of course, that they'll be asking police to go harass all those people now armed with the newly allowed unregistered concealed weapons.

[Trout]

I have to assume of course, that they'll be asking police to go harass all those people now armed with the newly allowed unregistered concealed weapons.

Only the brown ones.

[Lula Svoboda]

She signed it. :(

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3323/3192530628_011cc7a8f1.jpg

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

She signed it! :)

Here are some notes I took during her speech on the radio.

No higher priority than protecting AZ citizens. Adopted verbatim from the federal statute. Racial profiling won’t be tolerated. Added language to the bill to prevent it. Statements by opponents to the contrary were untrue. Police officers need to be trained. AZ POST (AZ Peace Officers Standards and Training board) to develop training to implement the bill, including what constitutes reasonable suspicion that a person not legally present in the US. 16,000 peace officers, 9000 correction officers. She has worked to solve problems diligently and practically with respect for rule of law. Protects state from crime due to illegal immigration, holds officers accountable for holding to bill of rights. Protecting citizens can’t come at the expense of diversity that makes AZ great. Must acknowledge that people across America are watching AZ, some want us to fail. Must use new tool wisely. Must prove alarmists and cynics wrong. She is up to that task. No man is above the law and no man is below it.

[Redhead]

I'm sure the people in Texas are glad to hear this. Now they aren't the only laughing stock of the USA.

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

More notes that I posted elsewhere from the continuing radio show:

J.D. Hayworth is on the phone to KFYI now. Charges of profiling and racism are the same old song from the open borders and amnesty crowd. Same thing we heard from Obama earlier today. Business community sees illegals as cheap labor. Napolitano and Obama view them as cheap votes. Wailing from the usual suspects. They want amnesty because it gives them permanent political victory status. John McCain introduced amnesty bill with Ted Kennedy, now this week did a 180 with a too little too late bill, or the JD Hayworth impersonation act. He continues to melt down in the polls because he has sounded false notes like saying he’s not a maverick. Arizonans are ready for change. If 70% of Arizonans support this bill, JD will reintroduce the enforcement first act, not treat Napolitano with kid gloves, restrict funds from endless parade of czars, will be not last line of defense (McCain campaign phrase), JD will be the first line of action.

Mayor Phil Gordon of Phoenix is going to ask the City Attorney to get the feds to issue an injunction to stop enforcement of this law until it’s analyzed (or something like that). Kyrsten Sinema, the most sickeningly liberal AZ legislator, is threatening a lawsuit. The callers to KFYI are absolutely hilarious. “This is a sad day for AZ,” etc.

KFYI is now interviewing State Representative Steve Montenegro, who is Hispanic and one of the Republicans who voted the law into effect. The guy is razor-sharp intelligent and addresses every question with reason, not emotion. He talks about he illegal who was finally imprisoned after molesting three little girls. He was on his third illegal entry into the US because the feds can’t control the borders and keep him out. Steve says the main reason for this law is to protect more little girls like the ones this illegal traumatized.

I am so proud to be an Arizonan today!

Here’s the bill:

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

Here’s an explanation of the bill:

http://www.russellpearce.com/text/immigration.htm

They just had a short interview with a supporter at the State Capitol. A Phoenix Police Lieutenant told him that if he walked to his car he would be taking his life in his hands because the opponents had sticks and guns and knives. He made his way to his car with an armed escort. I hope no one gets hurt down there today, and I wish I were there now.

They’re telling a great story about the high school kids who skipped school to go protest a few days ago. The ones from Maryvale headed out in the wrong direction at first. Finally someone got their smart phone GPS going and turned around in the right direction. As they walked, they came across another group of students from Trevor Browne High School. Since the two schools have a rivalry, they got into a big fight. So the Phoenix PD officers who were there to protect the protesters had to break up a fight between them instead. Some unnamed Phoenix PD officer sent KFYI host Mike Broomhead an email (Mike is a big PD supporter).

State Senator Russell Pearce, the bill’s author, is speaking now. The bill doesn’t allow an officer to stop anyone he couldn’t stop before. People will come to Arizona even more than before now, because it will be safer. Crime will drop. Our citizens have a constitutional right to see this bill enforced. Sanctuary policies are illegal under federal law and this bill enforces that. Every time there’s an anti-illegal bill out for a vote, 60% of Arizona’s legal Hispanics vote for it. It’s demeaning to them to have people think they support illegal aliens. Employer sanctions bill earlier had five lawsuits and the state won every one.

Mark Spencer, President of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Association, is being interviewed now. He talks about Probable Cause for an officer to pull you over. Any vehicle operator has to produce some form of identification. The host asked, if a US citizen forgot his wallet, he can be detained like anyone else. If someone produces an AZ driver’s license but has brown skin and a Spanish accent, what would happen? Mark responded with a question: what is suspicious about a US citizen producing valid ID? Mark said it’s frustrating when you have to pass a bill to force police chiefs to allow police officers to do police work. The mandate is not forcing officers to do this check. The mandate is to force police chiefs to allow them to do it.

Good stuff but I have to get back to work. Still proud!

Someone educated me about the Chandler rapist:

PHOENIX – The man who pleaded guilty to sexual conduct and molestation in the high-profile Chandler Rapist case was sentenced to at least 168.5 years in prison on Friday.

Santana Batiz Aceves pleaded guilty March 1st to five counts of sexual conduct with a minor, five counts of molestation of a child, one count of aggravated assault and one count of attempted sexual assault.

Several counts were reportedly dismissed with the plea agreement.

Batiz Aceves had his head down for most of the hour long proceeding and barely said more than his name and birth date.

There was at least one victim in court today and several victim’s family members.

Many addressed Batiz Aceves directly, saying that he had stolen these girls’ innocence and severly damaged entire families.

All but one father wanted their identities hidden; Dustin met with reporters outside the courthouse.

“I don’t want him to die, I want him to live and suffer,” he said.

“At least he fessed up to it, pleaded guilty and is behind bars where he belongs,” said Chandler resident Shaun Kraft, who lives near one of the Chandler Rapist’s victims. “I’m glad he’s caught and it’s over and done with. But it still leaves a scar on the community. It should never have happened.”

“It was a great relief he was caught and I’m glad he pleaded guilty, I hope the punishment will be sufficient,” said Chandler resident Jan McClellan who also lives near where one of the Chandler Rapist’s attacks happened.

Police claim DNA positively links Aceves to several assaults from the crime spree that terrorized many in the East Valley from 2006 to 2008.

“I just remember police were everywhere, it was scary,” said Chandler resident Erik Housel Monday, recalling the fear felt by area parents. “It is comforting to know he will no longer be endangering families in (Chandler).”

The 39-year-old was arrested by Chandler Police in January 2008.

[Fatz]

This is going to be great.

The obvious differentiating criteria given the area is language.

So. If you're white and don't speak spanish, you're obviously not from the area and need to prove citizenship.

Teabaggers--carry your birth certificates with you. None of this Certificate of Live Birth nonsense, but an honest to god Birth Certificate from the state where you were born. Or it's off to immigration with the lot of ya.

[Fatz]

blah blah blah

Have you noticed that you're talking to yourself here?

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

This is going to be great.

The obvious differentiating criteria given the area is language.

So. If you're white and don't speak spanish, you're obviously not from the area and need to prove citizenship.

Teabaggers--carry your birth certificates with you. None of this Certificate of Live Birth nonsense, but an honest to god Birth Certificate from the state where you were born. Or it's off to immigration with the lot of ya.
I see what you did there. Old white guys are in the minority now, eh? We old white guys have been joking about that for quite some time, but not in public, of course.

The law says a valid driver's license is all you need to prove you're not an illegal. You have to have one anyway, to drive a car, and in AZ we don't give them out to illegals. Luckily there's nothing racist about that or any other part of the law.

Have you noticed that you're talking to yourself here?
Well I thought I was talking to you. ;)

[Forest]

More notes that I posted elsewhere from the continuing radio show:





Someone educated me about the Chandler rapist:

tl;dr

[Richard Waveington]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22NidKwnpGc

*facepalm*

Imagine this was your mother :suicide:

[Lula Svoboda]

Attended the Alto Arizona Rally today at the Arizona State capitol. This is my favorite pic of the day.

On his stroller was a sign... "Do I look illegal?"

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3335/4553930466_7007482ef7.jpg

I did not see anyone in a green super hero suit anywhere!

More pics on my Flickr page.

OK... I will shut up now and let this thread die... hugs

[Mulch]

green lantern didnt rape that baby, right?

[Lula Svoboda]

As far as I know he didn't but I left the rally before it was over. He was prolly too busy enjoying something from the dollar menu...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/4553930752_9be9f5da74.jpg

[Lula Svoboda]

That baby had some stiff competition from these fabulous ladies:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4013/4553292619_95af6cd903_o.jpg

And these lovely young ones...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3567/4553930028_891e9c9ffb_o.jpg

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

Imagine this was your mother
Mom might say something very close to what that lady said. That lady is one of millions of Americans who think the same way, and I'm proud of her for voicing her opinion. I would have to question the gigantic glass that looks like it holds an entire bottle of wine, but maybe that's prune juice in there. ;)

Attended the Alto Arizona Rally today at the Arizona State capitol. This is my favorite pic of the day.

On his stroller was a sign... "Do I look illegal?"

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3335/4553930466_7007482ef7.jpg
That website is now obsolete, since Senate Bill 1070 was signed into law. Maybe he can use that T-shirt as a grease rag.

That baby had some stiff competition from these fabulous ladies:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4013/4553292619_95af6cd903_o.jpg
They may be fabulous, but I know for a fact they're uneducated. If they think Arizona has racist laws, they need to go back and do some reading. That goes for anyone who makes accusations of racism in Arizona. It's easy to make a sign that accuses someone of something. It's way more difficult to back up your accusations with facts. Those fabulous ladies would be unable to provide evidence that their accusations of racism are true, because they aren't.

[PrettierHateMachine]

Thanks, Lula.

[Richard Waveington]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ym4Zc_C9kOs

inbreds with guns ruining everyones day again.

[Rev Eponym]

If they think Arizona has racist laws, they need to go back and do some reading. That goes for anyone who makes accusations of racism in Arizona.

It doesn't matter if Arizona has the same laws on the books as California. The spirit with which the laws are enforced is what actually counts. It may be inaccurate to accuse the laws, instead of the law enforcers, but the accusations ultimately rest with the enforcers. Obviously, some people think the new Arizona laws will be abused, not because of the laws themselves, but because of the behavior of the enforcers.

[Vivianne Draper]

This actually took down half our office (everyone with older machines on XP) today and pretty much crippled us all day.

Sadly/luckily, both my machines were running Win7 and thus immune.

I blame illegal immigrants from Hawaii.

don't they test?

[PrettierHateMachine]

BTW:

The governor of Arizona is the only one without any college degree. She attended Glendale Community College in CA. Attended. Did not graduate.

... I know graduates from GCC who barely qualify as chordates. What the fuck?

[Rev Eponym]

don't they test?

That was the kicker, it didn't matter. The error was with the McAfee Antivirus updater.


The incorrect malware alert, issued today at 9am Eastern, resulted in computers with Windows XP Service Pack 3 to shut down and start on a continuous reboot cycle.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2362926,00.asp

[Vivianne Draper]

That was the kicker, it didn't matter. The error was with the McAfee Antivirus updater.



http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2362926,00.asp


dunno bout Lum's co but we have a McAfee backend and we can test every update before we push it out. Our systems connect to the ePO server -- not to McAfee directly.

[Lum]

don't they test?

No testing involved. McAfee downloaded a virus definition which flagged runsrv.exe as a virus. Cue shutdown of every XP machine in the office.

By the afternoon Ops had figured out the cause and were going to every affected machine and bringing them up manually.

(and no as far as I know we don't test every virus definition update before pushing it. I suspect only the largest of companies would have the resources or motivation for that.)

[Lula Svoboda]

That website is now obsolete, since Senate Bill 1070 was signed into law. Maybe he can use that T-shirt as a grease rag.
It is far from over, honey.

I know for a fact... blah blah blah
LOL!

[Lula Svoboda]

Thanks, Lula.
You're welcome! :D

[Lucifer Baphomet]

Just popped into the thread to say, Lula, you totally rock.

That is all.

[Lula Svoboda]

I am so glad Sheriff Joe-Gotta-Go's tool, the former County Attorney Andrew Thomas, has stepped down and the County Board of Supervisor's brought back one of the few Republicans who is level-headed to serve in the interim.

http://www.azfamily.com/good-morning-arizona/Romley-I-will-enforce-whatever-comes-my-way-92105364.html

The local media are calling this use of re-fried beans smeared on the Senate and House door vandalism. LOL!

http://www.azfamily.com/news/local/Swastikas-painted-with-beans-found-on-Capitol-grounds-92091314.html

Makes me want to go TP the Arizona capitol.

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

Obviously, some people think the new Arizona laws will be abused, not because of the laws themselves, but because of the behavior of the enforcers.
I doubt that the protesters actually believe that our dedicated and professional Arizona law enforcement officers will run around arresting people for having brown skin. It's more likely that they've bought into the myth that the illegals "just want to work" and that local and national law enforcement should turn a blind eye toward the fact that they're in violation of US law.

It is far from over, honey.
This law will stand, just like the Employer Sanctions law is still standing despite some organized whining.

I am so glad Sheriff Joe-Gotta-Go's tool, the former County Attorney Andrew Thomas, has stepped down and the County Board of Supervisor's brought back one of the few Republicans who is level-headed to serve in the interim.
Rick Romley is absolutely the worst County Attorney ever. There's a reason he wasn't reelected - he won't work with the Sheriff. It's too bad he will be here until November, but that will be the extent of his stay in office.

[Lum]

I doubt that the protesters actually believe that our dedicated and professional Arizona law enforcement officers will run around arresting people for having brown skin. It's more likely that they've bought into the myth that the illegals "just want to work" and that local and national law enforcement should turn a blind eye toward the fact that they're in violation of US law.

Yes, police have never targeted anyone due to their race, ever. :eyeroll:

Also, you're funny. Why *do* you think Mexicans cross the border illegally? To get better DirectTV reception?

The really amusing part of course, is that Mexico is so unamused (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8645561.stm) at this obviously racist and fascist legislation (and sorry, a law that says police can demand your proof of residency at any time, for any or no reason, specifically targeting an ethnic group, is the dictionary definition of fascist) that they're discussing economic sanctions against Arizona. Whoops!

Barry Goldwater would be ashamed of the police state Arizona is rapidly descending into.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSfYnKvENNw

But of course, those guys would never be asked for their papers. They're good Americans.

[Jorus]

I doubt that the protesters actually believe that our dedicated and professional Arizona law enforcement officers will run around arresting people for having brown skin.

Spoken like a man who knows exactly 0 cops. Even the ones I liked enough to be bar buddies with were egotistical power tripping assholes on a good day when on duty. Frankly a lot of day to day enforcement was at whim, and usually that whim involved aiming themselves at the lowest hanging fruit on the tree. That was the good cops, the crappy ones just busied themselves pulling people over for assinine shit like rolling stops at empty intersections.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Rev Eponym]

Did I just hear John McCain implying something about Mexican drug gang violence in Arizona? Maybe I'm out of touch, but I hadn't heard anything about activity north of the border.

[Damien Thorne]

Did I just hear John McCain implying something about Mexican drug gang violence in Arizona? Maybe I'm out of touch, but I hadn't heard anything about activity north of the border.
Phoenix has I believe the highest kidnapping rate in the country, most due to drug and human smuggling. It isn't as bad as in the northern states of Mexico, but the problems are increasing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/23/us/23border.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125844450
http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/state_factsheets/arizona.html

[Lum]

McCain unfortunately has gone from one of the strongest supporters of immigration reform to a bad parody of nativist rhetoric in the blink of an election challenge.

And yeah, the drug cartels funded by US drug use (and indirectly by US drug laws) aren't being polite enough to only foul their own nest. But by all means, let's blame housekeepers and day laborers and anyone who speaks with a funny accent. Because god only knows, actually forcing employers to pay a living wage instead of exploiting vulnerable undocumented workers for pennies would be bad for business.

[Richard Waveington]

Tess posted this on SLU, well worth a look...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilKUxWbGQj4

GLE: They may be fabulous, but I know for a fact they're uneducated.

[Cherish]

McCain unfortunately has gone from one of the strongest supporters of immigration reform to a bad parody of nativist rhetoric in the blink of an election challenge.

And yeah, the drug cartels funded by US drug use (and indirectly by US drug laws) aren't being polite enough to only foul their own nest. But by all means, let's blame housekeepers and day laborers and anyone who speaks with a funny accent. Because god only knows, actually forcing employers to pay a living wage instead of exploiting vulnerable undocumented workers for pennies would be bad for business.

I agree with that Lum, but you can't ask them when they sneak across the border if they are going to be naughty or nice. When I lived in AZ it was also the averaging working guy that made a very low wage also... not just illegals. Most of the legal working force made only minimum wage, about $6.00+ an hour when I lived there.

[Jorus]

McCain unfortunately has gone from one of the strongest supporters of immigration reform to a bad parody of nativist rhetoric in the blink of an elect



I agree with that Lum, but you can't ask them when they sneak across the border if they are going to be naughty or nice.

I'd like to restate something I said in threads past: Casual rascism does more harm than the overt hillbilly cartoonish shit.


Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Lum]

I listened to Kris Kobach on Diane Rehm this morning. He sounded a lot like GLE.

[Lum]

Most of the legal working force made only minimum wage, about $6.00+ an hour when I lived there.

Undocumented day laborers rarely make even close to minimum wage.

[Trout]

... Most of the legal working force made only minimum wage, about $6.00+ an hour when I lived there.

This statistic doesn't seem right at all. When you consider the broad spectrum of the legal working force, the majority has to be higher than minimum wage, doesn't it?

Keep in mind I'm both bad at statistics and other than Spring Training and the Grand Canyon, I haven't spent time in AZ. It just seems mathematically impossible for a State to survive with the majority of its legal workforce making below poverty line wages.

[Jorus]

... Most of the legal working force made only minimum wage, about $6.00+ an hour when I lived there.



This statistic doesn't seem right at all. When you consider the broad spectrum of the legal working force, the majority has to be higher than minimum wage, doesn't it?



Keep in mind I'm both bad at statistics and other than Spring Training and the Grand Canyon, I haven't spent time in AZ. It just seems mathematically impossible for a State to survive with the majority of its legal workforce making below poverty line wages.

4 out of 5 people make numbers up on the spot.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Cherish]

This statistic doesn't seem right at all. When you consider the broad spectrum of the legal working force, the majority has to be higher than minimum wage, doesn't it?

Keep in mind I'm both bad at statistics and other than Spring Training and the Grand Canyon, I haven't spent time in AZ. It just seems mathematically impossible for a State to survive with the majority of its legal workforce making below poverty line wages.

I lived in Prescott and believe me it was that way. I couldn't believe it either, because it was a hellious expensive little town to live in. Summer retreat for the rich from Phoenix/Scottsdale.

Thanks Jorus... not making up numbers... This was my experience. You want to talk Wal-mart workers....

[Richard Waveington]

I listened to Kris Kobach on Diane Rehm this morning. He sounded a lot like GLE.

There tends to be a little bleed over when they're all singing from the same hymn sheet ;)

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

Also, you're funny. Why *do* you think Mexicans cross the border illegally? To get better DirectTV reception?
They come here because they can make more money in the US than they can in Mexico. Follow the money...

...a law that says police can demand your proof of residency at any time, for any or no reason, specifically targeting an ethnic group, is the dictionary definition of fascist...
I agree with that, but the Arizona law does no such thing. The law does not specifically target any ethnic group. Don't buy into the hype - read it for yourself.

Spoken like a man who knows exactly 0 cops.
I'm a law enforcement volunteer, and I work with Sheriff's Deputies all the time. I don't know about the cops in your town, but in Maricopa County, the Deputies do not engage in racial profiling. Anyone who says they do is lying. It's against the law.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjGkBsn86Co

The first guy in the video is one of the Deputies I worked with earlier this year. Although I don't go around telling people to "shut the hell up," I agree with everything he said. He's one of those guys you meet every so often who is focused one hundred percent on the task at hand, not just cruising his way through life halfway paying attention to what goes on around him. He was exactly the same in private with the deputies and volunteers as he was in that video, except not angry - we don't do racial profiling, we stop vehicles for probable cause with no thought of race, and most of the time with the tinted windows you can't tell race anyway. Want to call Maricopa County Deputies racist? You'll have to prove it.

Did I just hear John McCain implying something about Mexican drug gang violence in Arizona? Maybe I'm out of touch, but I hadn't heard anything about activity north of the border.
Most definitely. There's a lot of money to be made selling drugs, and there's a lot of competition among criminals for who's going to get that money. The recent murder of Robert Krentz (http://azstarnet.com/news/local/border/article_bfac06dd-7495-5750-9ed2-d590c7bc913c.html) by an illegal alien was like an electric shock to the entire state. If there was any chance that this latest law might not pass before, this man's death killed that possibility. Sure, some illegals just work and don't cause problems, but the crime rate here in the Phoenix area has a significant illegal alien component to it, enough so that we need to completely close off illegal entry across the border and start deporting the illegals who won't go back home on their own.

As for John McCain, he is a creature of opportunity who leans whichever way the political wind blows. One minute he will be collaborating with Teddy Kennedy to put together an amnesty bill for illegals, but the next minute, when it comes time for reelection, he morphs into a conservative who now wants thousands of National Guard troops on the Arizona border with Mexico. He's just like Tom Daschle - represents himself in his own state as something he's not, then goes back to Washington and proceeds to vote the opposite of what his constituents want. Daschle lost his Senate seat nin 2004, and McCain is going to lose his too come November.

I listened to Kris Kobach on Diane Rehm this morning. He sounded a lot like GLE.
I'm glad to hear there are other voices of reason out there. If National Public Radio is giving them air time, then things must be getting serious. BTW, Kris Kobach is my secret identity.

[Lain (is Bams)]

Did someone say Mexico is going to put sanctions on Arizona? What are they going to do hold back all of the narcotics they ship north? I bet Arizona is quaking in their shitkickers.

:rotflmao:

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

Calderón, speaking to immigrant groups in Mexico City on Monday, condemned the new law, saying: "Criminalising immigration, which is a social and economic phenomenon, this way opens the door to intolerance, hate, discrimination and abuse in law enforcement." He added: "My government cannot and will not remain indifferent when these kinds of policies go against human rights."

The Mexican foreign ministry, in its travel warning, said that until the situation became clear, "it should be assumed that any Mexican citizen could be bothered and questioned for no reason at any time".
Reference (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/27/felipe-calderon-condemns-arizona-law)

Arizona breathes a collective "SO WHAT?" at the news.

[Lum]

They come here because they can make more money in the US than they can in Mexico. Follow the money...

Yes. Just like every other economic migration in human existence. Gosh.

I agree with that, but the Arizona law does no such thing. The law does not specifically target any ethnic group. Don't buy into the hype - read it for yourself.

The law gives law enforcement officials the authority, and in fact orders them to under pain of lawsuit, determine for themselves who is suspiciously illegal. Gosh. I just bet they're going to take care of that Canadian immigration problem tout suite now.

I'm a law enforcement volunteer, and I work with Sheriff's Deputies all the time. I don't know about the cops in your town, but in Maricopa County, the Deputies do not engage in racial profiling. Anyone who says they do is lying. It's against the law.

And that explains literally, literally everything.

You work for Maricopa County. Joe Arpaio's personal fief, who has let law enforcement in the county go to hel (http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/page/reasonable_doubt)l because of his personal crusade against Latinos, where the jail is run as a joke, with pink underwear, chain gangs and substandard food for the benefit of Fox reality TV shows (http://www.azcentral.com/ent/tv/articles/2008/11/18/20081118sherifftv1120.html) and anyone who criticizes Arpaio is brought up on charges.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/2009/12/23/20091223wed1-23.html
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/2009/12/21/20091221polk22-ON.html

Publish a critical story? Arpaio will not only arrest you, he'll sue your web server for the IP address of everyone who looked at it.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/1019newtimes1019.html

The same county where Sheriff's deputies arrested people at a county meeting for applauding.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/2008/12/ioawuvb.php

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKIB-IDY2aY

Yeah, I'm REALLY going to take your word for the racial sensitivity of Arizona police. After all, you seem well acquainted, by your own testimony, with the local brownshirts.

[Lum]

Sorry if that post gets :sc: sued, Leck. :(

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

OMG you are seriously posting links from the Arizona Repugnant and the Phoenix New Times to make your point? Hilarious! :lol:

[Lum]

I know, it's not like the Arizona Republic isn't the state's largest paper or anything. They're all a bunch of filthy liars!

It's OK, no one's going to make you read anything you disagree with. Just have fun in your little bubble.

[Jorus]

I'm a law enforcement volunteer,

Really you could have just stopped here if you wanted me to mock you, ya little power fantasizing fuckwit. I bet you jerk off to the sound of handcuffs jingling.

[Jorus]

Thanks Jorus... not making up numbers... This was my experience. You want to talk Wal-mart workers....

Anecdotes should never be the basis of passing laws.

[Richard Waveington]

edited out by a sorry Richie.

[Jorus]

<imagesnip>

Hai! I'm GLE and I'm a racist badass :lmao:

that mustache says business.

Have we changed era's again? I'm not sure. The last time I bothered to check up on what was trendy mustaches made you either a gay porn stud or a math teacher.

[Lain (is Bams)]

Mustaches work. Just ask this guy...
http://img.youtube.com/vi/6lgpOdRXXu0/0.jpg

[Lain (is Bams)]

Then again these guys didn't need the mustache...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_FGrxKMwdUu8/RvaPVRgwTkI/AAAAAAAABrU/_OJSdWeKN5c/s400/chips.jpg

I guess it's all about perspective. :bong:

[Jorus]

Then again these guys didn't need the mustache...


I guess it's all about perspective. :bong:

One of those guys could be detained as an illegal immigrant!

[Lain (is Bams)]

The Shatman endorses the stashless Cop look....

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9f7BpdgcRBs/RgK2kHvpdbI/AAAAAAAAAYg/4SZnpI8tJ2s/s400/tj.jpg

[Lain (is Bams)]

http://420.thrashbarg.net/unexplainable_picture.jpg

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

that mustache says business.
Congratulations on your successful research. I'm actually impressed that you found this.

[Richard Waveington]

Congratulations on your successful research. I'm actually impressed that you found this.

It's actually you? stab in the dark :D (to be fair there isn't many others on free republic working in the nuclear sector and playing police man in their spare time)

[Jorus]

It's actually you? stab in the dark :D (to be fair there isn't many others on free republic working in the nuclear sector and playing police man in their spare time)

Really dude? Internet detective?

I think GLE is a bit off, but going so far as to track down his real life picture doesn't make just him look crazy yanno.

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

I might have posted that in a private message rather than out in front of everyone, but I guess there's no harm done. I think now we need a thread with everyone else's RL photos, just to balance things out. ;)

[Jorus]

I might have posted that in a private message rather than out in front of everyone, but I guess there's no harm done. I think now we need a thread with everyone else's RL photos, just to balance things out. ;)

You are a horrible person and a raging twat. But even I respect that tossing your picture out is a bit too far and bad taste.

[Lucifer Baphomet]

I might have posted that in a private message rather than out in front of everyone, but I guess there's no harm done. I think now we need a thread with everyone else's RL photos, just to balance things out. ;)

http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/showthread.php?t=363

You'll certainly find me here (as I started the thread), and many others who post here.

[Govi]

http://blog.thestateworkers.org/wp-content/uploads/blog.thestateworkers.org/2009/08/VoxPop09poster1.jpg

[Trout]

I'm in that thread somewhere, too. Posting that picture was uncool. Jesus - I'm going off on GLE for taking the low road and making the worst possible argument and Richie is in here posting the guy's RL photo and making fun of his moustache.

For the record, that's a great 'stache. I've got the full moustache and goatee going on and have for 20 years.



So there.

Edit - posted another one. Anyone with a problem with my facial hair can go pound sand.

[PrettierHateMachine]

My...

Anyways.

Russell Pearce wrote the bill, yes? Well... if I were to google his name with, oh, "white supremacist", I would come up with some fascinating shit, yo.

Like, oh, this. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-12-race-supremacy_x.htm

Republican Rep. Russell Pearce has apologized for e-mailing the article from the West Virginia-based National Alliance. But that hasn't stopped criticism from all directions, including state GOP leaders.

Arizona Republican Chairman Matt Salmon called the e-mail a "severe mistake," while Rep. J.D. Hayworth says he no longer supports Pearce's re-election bid.

"Given the regrettable and disturbing nature of the e-mail Russell Pearce circulated earlier this week, I cannot in good conscience lend my endorsement to his candidacy for State Representative," Hayworth said in a statement.

The article lashes out at how the media portrays "any racially conscious White person who looks askance at miscegenation or at the rapidly darkening racial situation in America."

It says the "media masters" force on the public their view of "a world in which every voice proclaims the equality of the races, the inerrant nature of the Jewish 'Holocaust' tale, the wickedness of attempting to halt the flood of non-White aliens pouring across our borders ... ."

Well, maybe he doesn't really believe that. Oh.

Well.

Uhm.

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/bastard/ReadyandRussell.jpg

The guy on the left is J. T. Ready. He's a charmer. Also, a NeoNazi. Lovely boy, I'm sure he brings home flowers for his Mum.

There's more, of course. It'd be lovely if I didn't think some people would need it.

The legislation was drafted by Kris Kobach[1],

who is closely linked with both Arpaio and FAIR. FAIR was called out by the SPLC[2] for being funded by a eugenics-promoting hate group.

I know who I would want to be in bed with.

[1]http://www.kriskobach.org/

[2]http://www.splcenter.org/publications/the-nativist-lobby-three-faces-of-intolerance/fair-the-action-arm

[PrettierHateMachine]

BTW, my formatting's all fucked up because I had to block images from SC due to Bams' avatar, or I wouldn't have been able to sleep tonight.

[GreenLantern Excelsior]

My...

Anyways.

Russell Pearce wrote the bill, yes? Well... if I were to google his name with, oh, "white supremacist", I would come up with some fascinating shit, yo.
Here's what he said about it, according to the article:

Pearce said he immediately sent two apologies to supporters after forwarding the article. He said he did not know what the group was and that he had not read the entire article before copying it into his e-mail.

"My heart is really hurt to think something like that would go out under my name," Pearce said Tuesday. "I was very embarrassed I didn't have better diligence and read the whole article."
I don't know him personally. I've heard him on talk radio, and once he was at a meeting I attended where he spoke about how to get involved in politics as a precinct committeeman. My impression is that he's sincere in his belief that illegal immigration is a very serious problem that isn't being taken care of at the national level, so he's doing what he can to combat it at the State level. I think he's doing the best he can to protect all of us, and I would be very surprised to hear that he is a racist.

BTW, I don't get pissed off easily except when someone calls me a racist. I carpool to work with a black guy who once told me "That's what I like about you - you're color-blind." So call me whatever you want, but please, leave that one out.

[Jorus]

BTW, I don't get pissed off easily except when someone calls me a racist. I carpool to work with a black guy who once told me "That's what I like about you - you're color-blind." So call me whatever you want, but please, leave that one out.

I have a black friend too.

[prinţesă nina]

me too

[Lum]

I might have posted that in a private message rather than out in front of everyone, but I guess there's no harm done. I think now we need a thread with everyone else's RL photos, just to balance things out. ;)

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v298/97/52/579456257/n579456257_1006672_83.jpg

[Vivianne Draper]

It's actually you? stab in the dark :D (to be fair there isn't many others on free republic working in the nuclear sector and playing police man in their spare time)

really you should edit that out. out of line, imho, to post someone's rl pic without their permission

[Forest]

Over the line Richard.

[PrettierHateMachine]

Richie, I am disappoint

(belated but true)

[Vivianne Draper]

on another yet related note, i always had this pic in my mind of gle being a cross between the comic book green lantern and jim carrey's joker in batman. this illusion is now forever squashed because of richie :(

[Richard Waveington]

Richie, I am disappoint

(belated but true)

yep, it wasn't cool, my apologies to Mr. Lantern for that.

[Lucifer Baphomet]

really you should edit that out. out of line, imho, to post someone's rl pic without their permission


*cough* I wonder who posted Immy's pic without his permission, which then allowed me to make and post motivationals without Immy's permission *cough*

[Don Mill]

I don't get it. If I post a picture of myself in the Internet, doesn't that posting make the picture public? From then on, it is an open field.

I could agree with the idea that posting a picture that someone took of me in the Internet without my prior consent is creepy... buy guys/gals, aren't we getting too PC here?

:hug:

[Cherish]

Anecdotes should never be the basis of passing laws.

Dude, I am not saying any laws should be past or not because of what I saw. You seem to think that the only people that are poor or are day workers are illegals and that is just not the case. I am merely talking about my experience. You don't like what I have experienced, don't read it. I have already posted in the forums that one of my special friends in AZ lived in a box up in the hills. Please go find someone else to argue with. That's not my bag of worms.. I wish to God there was a way to make everyone in the world happy and financially stable, but I don't have a clue how that could be done.

[Jorus]

I don't get it. If I post a picture of myself in the Internet, doesn't that posting make the picture public? From then on, it is an open field.

I could agree with the idea that posting a picture that someone took of me in the Internet without my prior consent is creepy... buy guys/gals, aren't we getting too PC here?

:hug:

We didn't say it was illegal, just dickheaded. Technically your home address is easilly accessable to the point of being public knowledge. Do you want someone dredging it up?

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[Vivianne Draper]

*cough* I wonder who posted Immy's pic without his permission, which then allowed me to make and post motivationals without Immy's permission *cough*

immy posted it himself on slu -- which is where i got it from. whats more you are well aware of this. as far as i know, gle didn't post his pic on a message board.

[Lucifer Baphomet]

immy posted it himself on slu -- which is where i got it from. whats more you are well aware of this. as far as i know, gle didn't post his pic on a message board.

Richie found it on Free Republic.

[Lucifer Baphomet]

Also, GLE wasn't perturbed at it being posted....

And said he was actually impressed Richie found it.